Rounds per hour

[ZenKinG]

Currently devising a plan of attack and want to know all of my calculations in CVCX. Speed of rounds dealt along with pen are the two biggest factors in results per hour so I'm really trying to ballpark it to a nice average. My question for all of you is what would you say is your career average in rounds per hour if you had to ballpark it? I dont want to round it to the standard 100 hands because I believe there is a greater abundance of faster dealers and above average dealers than there are slow ones, also me being a pure wong type of player I bounce quickly if I dont like the speed/conditions at the table. So im looking to put in around at least 115-120. What would you guys say has been your average throughout your career?

[Three]

Speed often depends most on others at the table. Rainbow bets, side bets and just plain slow players will often set the speed of a game.

[ZenKinG]

Speed often depends most on others at the table. Rainbow bets, side bets and just plain slow players will often set the speed of a game.

Thanks for not answering my question.

[Three]

Thanks for not answering my question.

At a crowded rainbow betting table full of side bettors around 50 rounds/hour and at an empty table anywhere from 80 to 250 rounds/hour depending on the dealer, but I have had dealers deal much slower heads up. As for average that gets very complicated which is why nobody has answered your question. Do you like that answer better because that is the best answer I can give? You seemed to think speed depended most on the dealer which is usually not the case. I was just pointing out your failed premise in a nice way. I left a table with a fat count because the game was so slow. I played 3 shoes at the next table and they hadn't finished the shoe that I left halfway through the shoe yet. There was only one person at the sloooooooooooooooooooooow table. You make what you make at the table. Everything we do as players is short term. All you can do to assure your results are somewhat predictable in the short term is do everything you can to tighten the bell curves in order to lower your n0. Wonging, stronger counts and more indices help with that goal. You know what conditions you are going to play on average so only you can give an accurate answer to your question. Just get out and play some so you can answer it rather than armchair AP'ing. I have no idea what my average is. I can tell you how many rounds an hour I am getting at any session but averaging the wide range of speeds you have to deal with is a daunting task. I wish I got enough heads up that had a fast dealer to make an impact on all the slow tables. I would guess that 100 rounds/hour is a generous estimate.

The way I look at it is you play the conditions you find worthwhile and that is it. The speed is out of your control for the most part. You either accept what is there or you don't play. Often I choose not to play. I would rather get 12 to 18 quality hours with a low n0 on a 2 day trip than try to play the crappy conditions to get more hours in. The results are much more predictable. You can sit there in your armchair and imagine how much you may make one day all you want but it isn't going to change what you will actually make or the speed of the games you actually end up playing. You want to figure out things that are in your control like your system, number of indices and finding tolerant stores. These things will affect n0 and winrate in a predictable way.

[ZenKinG]

At a crowded rainbow betting table full of side bettors around 50 rounds/hour and at an empty table anywhere from 80 to 250 rounds/hour depending on the dealer, but I have had dealers deal much slower heads up. As for average that gets very complicated which is why nobody has answered your question. Do you like that answer better because that is the best answer I can give? You seemed to think speed depended most on the dealer which is usually not the case. I was just pointing out your failed premise in a nice way. I left a table with a fat count because the game was so slow. I played 3 shoes at the next table and they hadn't finished the shoe that I left halfway through the shoe yet. There was only one person at the sloooooooooooooooooooooow table. You make what you make at the table. Everything we do as players is short term. All you can do to assure your results are somewhat predictable in the short term is do everything you can to tighten the bell curves in order to lower your n0. Wonging, stronger counts and more indices help with that goal. You know what conditions you are going to play on average so only you can give an accurate answer to your question. Just get out and play some so you can answer it rather than armchair AP'ing. I have no idea what my average is. I can tell you how many rounds an hour I am getting at any session but averaging the wide range of speeds you have to deal with is a daunting task. I wish I got enough heads up that had a fast dealer to make an impact on all the slow tables. I would guess that 100 rounds/hour is a generous estimate.

The way I look at it is you play the conditions you find worthwhile and that is it. The speed is out of your control for the most part. You either accept what is there or you don't play. Often I choose not to play. I would rather get 12 to 18 quality hours with a low n0 on a 2 day trip than try to play the crappy conditions to get more hours in. The results are much more predictable. You can sit there in your armchair and imagine how much you may make one day all you want but it isn't going to change what you will actually make or the speed of the games you actually end up playing. You want to figure out things that are in your control like your system, number of indices and finding tolerant stores. These things will affect n0 and winrate in a predictable way.

Of course I know the players affect the speed of the game and I have done exactly what you have stated about leaving a nice count because the game was ridiculously slow. The worst is when everyone is betting a side bet and hitting them and getting paid off at odd amounts and then having to call over the floor time and time again which slows it down even more, add a full table to that and 50% of them hitting the side bets at odd amounts and for me that becomes unplayable. I mentioned that I try to avoid slow dealers AND conditions and when I said conditions I meant exactly just that, if it's crowded or its just taking too damn long.

By the way thanks for answering it this time around. I think my average is somewhere around 150-175 as I play at odd hours when the casino is not that crowded. I would make it a little higher, but I plan on playing every shit and that includes the afternoon shift whee there will be a lot more people playing and thus slowing down my rounds per hour, so 150-175 sounds about right for me.

Also thanks for the advice RStoned, should've thought about that before to even get a ballpark figure, but still thought it was a decent question to ask to also get a ballpark figure on everyones hands per hour. What Im going to do is use the website http://www.online-stopwatch.com/ and play on Casino Verite at a speed that I believe is average to what I play and record the time results and figure it out

**Update. Got about 5 rounds a minute at the speed that I believed to be the normal speed in real life when I play on average. So doing the math, Im getting around 300 hands an hour. Nice. And yes I lowered the number from around 7 a minute to 5 for the times when people buy in, side bet payoffs, and some slow dealers. I think 5 a minute is a good ballpark figure because I will also encounter faster dealers and conditions as well so I think 5 a minute is a good average to go by. To be even more conservative lets say 4 rounds a minute, in case I play with 3 or more people. That's 240 hands per hour. To be even more conservative Ill round it to 210 rounds per hour and I think that's a great number to go by. Unbelievable what it does to the win rate and how important game speed is as well as pen.

[Three]

**Update. Got about 5 rounds a minute at the speed that I believed to be the normal speed in real life when I play on average. So doing the math, Im getting around 300 hands an hour. Nice. And yes I lowered the number from around 7 a minute to 5 for the times when people buy in, side bet payoffs, and some slow dealers. I think 5 a minute is a good ballpark figure. So 300 hands an hour is my average.

Remember with software the cards can show up instantaneously. They aren't pulled like a dealer does and human reaction time is .5 to 1 second if they are paying attention. If you are looking for a realistic estimate of heads up play you you must adjust the software time for reaction time. You are already reacting so you only need to worry about the dealer. Also the cards must be retrieved and put into the discards by the dealer as well as payouts and removal of lost chips. Study how your software differs from real live play in this timing and make adjustments. I rarely see lightning fast dealers. Playing too fast can be a red flag so make sure you are paying attention to other things as well. If you average 12 seconds a round against instantaneous software a more realistic time against a dealer may be 15 seconds or more a round. The fastest dealers I have ever seen were dealing open to anybody for minimal play complementary BJ tournaments. I have never seen that kind of speed at a casino table. I am really fast at play so maybe I just don't notice or perhaps the rarity of a headsup game when I can get out just makes the game slow because of the other players pace.

[ZenKinG]

Remember with software the cards can show up instantaneously. They aren't pulled like a dealer does and human reaction time is .5 to 1 second if they are paying attention. If you are looking for a realistic estimate of heads up play you you must adjust the software time for reaction time. You are already reacting so you only need to worry about the dealer. Also the cards must be retrieved and put into the discards by the dealer as well as payouts and removal of lost chips. Study how your software differs from real live play in this timing and make adjustments. I rarely see lightning fast dealers. Playing too fast can be a red flag so make sure you are paying attention to other things as well. If you average 12 seconds a round against instantaneous software a more realistic time against a dealer may be 15 seconds or more a round. The fastest dealers I have ever seen were dealing open to anybody for minimal play complementary BJ tournaments. I have never seen that kind of speed at a casino table. I am really fast at play so maybe I just don't notice or perhaps the rarity of a headsup game when I can get out just makes the game slow because of the other players pace.

Exactly why I took it from 7 rounds per minute to 5 to account for all that small miscellaneous stuff. To be even more conservative im now doing about 4 rounds per minute or 240 hands per hour. And to be even more conservative im using a 210 rounds per hour estimate and i believe that is a good figure to go by.

[Stealth]

**Update. Got about 5 rounds a minute at the speed that I believed to be the normal speed in real life when I play on average. So doing the math, Im getting around 300 hands an hour. Nice. And yes I lowered the number from around 7 a minute to 5 for the times when people buy in, side bet payoffs, and some slow dealers. I think 5 a minute is a good ballpark figure because I will also encounter faster dealers and conditions as well so I think 5 a minute is a good average to go by. To be even more conservative lets say 4 rounds a minute, in case I play with 3 or more people. That's 240 hands per hour. To be even more conservative Ill round it to 210 rounds per hour and I think that's a great number to go by. Unbelievable what it does to the win rate and how important game speed is as well as pen.

Is that 300 "rounds" of 1 hand per hour or 150 rounds of 2 hands per hour?.

I believe playing 2 hands per "round" is faster than playing one.

In your early post you indicated you were "pure wong type player". If that is true then your 300 hands per hour is unrealistic. Generally only 15-18% of the rounds are positive counts but the negative counts are certainly part of your "hands per hour" effect.

Not real certain what you are trying to answer..? hi speed heads up 300 HPH or wong in/out effect? or both?

[ZenKinG]

Is that 300 "rounds" of 1 hand per hour or 150 rounds of 2 hands per hour?.

I believe playing 2 hands per "round" is faster than playing one.

In your early post you indicated you were "pure wong type player". If that is true then your 300 hands per hour is unrealistic. Generally only 15-18% of the rounds are positive counts but the negative counts are certainly part of your "hands per hour" effect.

Not real certain what you are trying to answer..? hi speed heads up 300 HPH or wong in/out effect? or both?

Well im counting 'hands observed' while backcounting as hands per hour and I took the speed of the average speed conditions when others are playing into my ballpark number already as well. From what Im aware hands observed count towards N0. I will also be playing two hands when i jump in.

[Three]

Well im counting 'hands observed' while backcounting as hands per hour and I took the speed of the average speed conditions when others are playing into my ballpark number already as well. From what Im aware hands observed count towards N0. I will also be playing two hands when i jump in.

Seriously. You will be watching someone else play at their speed and count those rounds and expect anything north of 100 rounds per hour? Then you wong in and have to play at a table with someone else? You will never ever even come close to 200 rounds per hour. Just think about it for a minute!!!!

[ZenKinG]

Seriously. You will be watching someone else play at their speed and count those rounds and expect anything north of 100 rounds per hour? Then you wong in and have to play at a table with someone else? You will never ever even come close to 200 rounds per hour. Just think about it for a minute!!!!

I have thought about it plenty, which is why I simmed the speed of the average table I watch on casino verite. I took a ballpark speed that seemed about right when I backcount and put it into casino verite and used the online stopwatch. About 4 rounds a minute. Keep in mind I search for tables to backcount with fairly good speed conditions, such as players not playin side bets, dealer speed, and good natural flow to the game with no interruptions of story telling from the dealer to the player. If i see anything disruptive to speed, im quick to move to another dealer shuffling. Of course in a perfect world there is limited tables, but I tend to do well with strategy and like I said all that miscellaneous stuff already took my 240 hands an hour and dropped it to 200 to be conservative. I'm sure there will also be many times where I get around 300 an hour and sometimes 100 an hour so it will all average out and I believe 200 is highly attainable.

[Norm]

Thanks for not answering my question.

Funny. T3 gets criticized for giving lengthy answers. When he provides a pithy answer, he gets a snide remark. Ya just can't win.

[moo321]

Thanks for not answering my question.

This is why people don't answer your questions. Hostility aimed at someone who gave you a very good response.