Recommended Buy-In

**bigplayer** · 04-17-2015, 08:50 PM

Buy-in enough to make one medium bet. If your medium bet $300 then that is a good amount to buy-in with.

**Dieter** · 04-18-2015, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cloudstreets7087

What is the benefit of stockpiling chips? Do you mean leave the table without coloring up?

Even if you color up, maybe it doesn't come out even to purple, and after several trips you have several handfuls of various denominations.

Coloring up doesn't mean you cash it all out.

**Stealth** · 04-18-2015, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Orangechip2

I would reccomend buying in for $200-$300 . With $25 as a base that's plenty. If the TC calls for your $400 wager and you don't have that amount in front of you wager what you have and rebuying for $400 is always an option. This gives them them idea that your chasing when you are "all in" or Hbe to dig for money on a double down/split; opposed to having $500-$1000 in front of you from the beginning, although the count may never call for a $50 wager . Imagine buying in at the $5 table for 200 and betting $5 a hand for 1.5 decks and then leaving table . If you show them you have money you may pose a threat.

Ah, the world of unintended consequences. While I agree that chasing is a good thing to represent, be careful sitting at low TC betting and then losing some hand while the TC goes to +4 and you should bet your big bet but do not have enough money out. VERY UNUSUAL to go to pocket for money and then immediately raise your bet from 100 (? or less) to 400 while playing a 25 minimum unit.

Do not mean to be evasive but my answer to the buy in question is "depends". Is this a 2/6/8 deck game. How many other people are at the table and how much is in front of them? Am I going to wong in a $5 table with a starting bet of $400? Is this an all play? What casino are you in? Caesars or an Indian store in Southern California with 300 max bet. This game has so many moving parts that a "one size fits all" answer does not seem to work. Learn the positives and negatives and then use good judgement.

In this type of question, ask yourself what do gamblers do? If they win they bet more, if they lose they may also bet more until they are out of money then they get more money from their pocket usually in small increments. With all this being said, the real issue that should be of concern is the 1-16 ramp as it will trump the perceived buy in issue as a threat to detection.

**Shadowless** · 04-19-2015, 02:00 AM

1, 2, 4, 16 is an aggressive spread and doesn't look optimal.

If you're worried about camo, it's gonna be your spread that gets their attention, not the buy-in.
Do you really think surveillance/PBs would care what amount you buy in for if they see you betting 400 at +4 or higher and minimum on +1 and lower?

Lots of books recommend not adding chips from you stack to your bet, making a parlay the max amount for the next bet. Using that recommendation, if you were to bet 25 and the TC climbs to +2, +3 and +4, you'd have to parlay your bet four times (25-50, 50-100, 100-200, 200-400) to reach your max bet of 400 if no doubles/splits were involved. Winning five hands in a row is not common.

**Three** · 04-19-2015, 05:09 AM

Buy in for about half your max bet or one max bet. A rebuy can always be the same or be double your initial buyin. Rebuy as often as necessary. In answering the question or following advice you must always consider your goal. If you are a backcounter and want to go unnoticed starting with chips of a small enough denomination just lets you jump in and go without the pit being called. Having black chips will have the floor notified.

A good dealer should be able to tell the pit how many chips you brought to the game and how many of denominations that are tracked were brought in. It is a part of their job to know these things. Most bigger places if you bring green the conversation goes like this. Floor asks, How much did he buy in for? Dealer, He brought chips. And the dealer should know to mention tracked chips. Then the floor may ask how much especially if you have a bunch in front of you. A good dealer will mention this even if you are gone already. It is a part of their job responsibilities. I often wonder if the places that seem lax when it comes to table accounting have the EITS or RFID chips to do table accounting. If they don't do accounting accurately theft by employees is hard to catch. That is the main reason for all the table accounting. There are other uses for the casino but the biggest threat to a casino is employee theft.

**Sweaty** · 04-20-2015, 02:04 PM

I've got some industry experience and worked in two very different places. One was strict enough where we had to announce "green action" on $5 games and had to get approval to bring in what looked like more than $100 chips for a color up. The second place I worked hardly kept track of anything and would just make the numbers work by using "guests" if they didn't know where the action went. Granted, there were some good floors, but the majority didn't care.

I think that buying in for $1000 and starting with $25 min is less suspicious than buying in for $400, then having to rebuy before you fire most of your stack if you get to max bet. If I were OP I would start with $600-$800 half and half. I do not have experience green chipping though. Red chipping I buy in for $150-$200 with an $80 max bet and don't feel it draws any extra attention, even in the low action places I play.

**ohbehave** · 04-20-2015, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Sweaty

I think that buying in for $1000 and starting with $25 min is less suspicious than buying in for $400, then having to rebuy before you fire most of your stack if you get to max bet. If I were OP I would start with $600-$800 half and half. I do not have experience green chipping though. Red chipping I buy in for $150-$200 with an $80 max bet and don't feel it draws any extra attention, even in the low action places I play.

This is interesting in that it is directly opposed to what many experienced APs believe. How much does table min matter, so is there any suspicion if its at a $5 table. Did the "green action" on the $5 game actually trigger any suspicion?

Different topic, but in your experience, what would trigger the pit/surveillance to run a database search of a player, Biometrica or OSN?

**Sweaty** · 04-21-2015, 08:06 AM

In the establishment I worked at the "green action" call was to notify the floor it was in play so they could track it, it never necessarily meant it triggered suspicion, but it inherently drew attention. In the higher limit room they were not as tight with greens, understandably. I was just giving that example to show the contrast in accounting styles of different places.

I can't tell you much about the triggers. The second place I worked seemed to have none. Floors had to call surveillance at 3k total buy in for accounting purposes. Surveillance may have done checks on their own at that point but I am unaware. But I've also watched that place do a skills check and then let an accurate counter keep playing. Not sure why. Maybe a history of being reckless? Never saw anyone get banned from there. So not much value in that experience.

The first place I worked I only saw one person get banned. He was an ex-employee that was a known counter. They paid a lot more attention to the spread there, I can't say what the threshold would be, but getting "cheques play" called on you a few times would probably get you a background check. Other than that I wouldn't say much of anything came from the floors observations.

I noticed what I said opposes what many AP's say but I don't know, it's all subjective. I don't have the experience they do from being barred and banned. I do have a lot of experience dealing, and I know that if I see someone buy in for $200, I'm not expecting them to be firing out $400 randomly, and if they have to buy in to do it, it seems all the more suspicious.