Hard 17 v. Ace and Cover on Min bet

[Oneoffthecount]

ok, so everyone probably has thier own cover tweaks. I'm looking at not surrendering hard 17 on ace on min bet, possibly TC 1. How much does the house notice the surrender on 17? The edge doesn't look very big to me and hence cost on lower TC where there will be more frequency might be acceptable. I know the tweak doesn't help my EV but overall, as a cost of cover if sr hard 17 screams I'm counting any thoughts on standing on low counts?

[mushin]

I have never been at a table with surrender and I have considered, as crazy as it sounds, not even taking the option... period.. Essentially playing a surrender table as no surrender. But to answer your question... if it is for cover you have to weigh if the cover will even be noticed. Would any self respecting counter not use surrender at all if possible... what about just here and there. Who would notice and would it really give you more longevity?

[NotEnoughHeat]

I think it's one thing to occasionally avoid the more obscure surrenders, but not surrendering things like 16 v 10 when you have your max bet out is leaving money on the table.

[Oneoffthecount]

I think it's one thing to occasionally avoid the more obscure surrenders, but not surrendering things like 16 v 10 when you have your max bet out is leaving money on the table.

Duly noted NotEnough but please remember I am only considering 17 v A at low count. Not looking for surrender or playing it if available would kind of surprise me. It adds about 15 cents EV on what is around 85 cents ev for me. For 15 cents ev, I will surrender faster than France!!

[Thirdbaseman]

I see no reason to not surrender when the count calls for it.
Ploppies are all over the place with surrender.
Some will surrender a 12 v 7 for example. So you might look like a ploppy when you surrender at a high index.
Some ploppies will never surrender & get pissed when you surrender. I love it when they leave the table because I screwed up the flow by surrendering.

[21forme]

Depends on the casino and the clientele. If a lot of Asians play there, you'll fit right in surrendering 17 v A. I've seen plenty of Asian little old ladies surr 12 v 7
The bottom line, it won't make much of a difference in EV, but if you're a red chipper don't give up anything with camo. You can't afford it.

[Three]

I never worry about surrender cover. Surrender is to valuable and if you want cover make some stupid surrenders with min bet out not forgo BS surrenders.

[BoSox]

Would any self respecting counter not use surrender at all if possible... what about just here and there.

No, absolutely not. Surrender is just too valuable an option for a card counter. Evidently you do not realize there are surrender plays that supersede basic strategy. You can increase your betting wagers in positive counts a little higher than playing non surrender games just for having this option available to you. The added edge card counters get from using surrender is far greater " fab4 " than players who play only basic strategy.

Who would notice and would it really give you more longevity?

I believe this would go unnoticed because most ploppies do not use the option because they come to the casino to gamble not give up half their money. If you do not use surrender period this could increase your longevity because of all the mistakes you will be making.

BoSox

[Three]

I believe this would go unnoticed because most ploppies do not use the option because they come to the casino to gamble not give half their money back. If you do not use surrender period this could increase your longevity because of all the mistakes you will be making.

there are certainly a certain number of these. I was at a table when the Floor gave everyone an option. One guy chose to play his stiff against a 4. Everyone including the Floor told him it was stupid not to pull his bet back. All he could think was the dealer had a 4 up so it was good for him. I told him he was playing for a dealer bust and the dealer was going to buts far less than 50% of the time and there was no possibility for a push. He played the hand anyway. He lost.

I think I see more ploppies misusing LS than not using it. The other day I saw a ploppy surrender 12 against an 8.

[bigplayer]

Use a fixed surrender strategy and surrender gives the casino zero information they can use to judge your skill and in fact makes you look more square.

[Jabberwocky]

Surrendering 17 v Ace is BS.