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Thread: Is surrender still a common option? Comparing games

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  1. #1


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    Is surrender still a common option? Comparing games

    here in my part of the Midwest, surrender does not exist, I never see it offered. If surrender is offered, is it offered on all games in a casino or selectively? How big of an edge does it provide? I think the challenge is to compare games and come to the right conclusions.

    For example, in my neighborhood casino, the DD, Min $25 game is H17, double on 9-11 only and the 6 deck game is H17 no surrender but all other options available. On the DD game penetration varies by dealer with some cutting 1 deck off and others cutting 1/2 deck (75%) off. I play the DD game when the penetration is 75% but when dealers change and the penetration reduces to 50%, I move off to the 6 deck game where the penetration is always about 1.2 decks. The problem with the 6 deck game is the lower min. ($10) and side bets which slow the game down considerably.

  2. #2
    Senior Member BigJer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    here in my part of the Midwest, surrender does not exist, I never see it offered. If surrender is offered, is it offered on all games in a casino or selectively? How big of an edge does it provide? I think the challenge is to compare games and come to the right conclusions.
    According to WoO Late Surrender is 0.08%.

    http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackj...RuleVariations
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  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJer View Post
    According to WoO Late Surrender is 0.08%.
    While true off the top, it is more valuable to counters, generally more like .2%!
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  4. #4


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    Don't take this the wrong way but maybe take a moment to think through some of your questions... Re Surrender what do you think. It should be fairly obvious and.... fairly easy to find out. Also if you are actively playing you should have a book or website in mind where you can go to reference the impact of surrender on the house edge.

    I also don't see why a lower minimum would be a problem... you don't have to bet the minimum. Unless what you are saying is that the lower minimum contributes to the slower game because more people are playing. Yes side bets do slow down the game.... not much you can do about that.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by mushin View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way but maybe take a moment to think through some of your questions... Re Surrender what do you think. It should be fairly obvious and.... fairly easy to find out. Also if you are actively playing you should have a book or website in mind where you can go to reference the impact of surrender on the house edge.
    This sounds familiar...

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    This sounds familiar...
    Since I never play games with surrender, why would I go look it up? I just ask and the more decent people do, as you can see, answer. You and some on the other forum are the sort who will tell someone who politely asks for direction to go get a GPS or see a homeless person, roll down your window and yell to go get a job. $&@&$ idiots. Can't ever understand why, other than immaturity, would a guy read and respond to people they have already decided they do not like or are a troll or whatever. Mature people do not respond to people who they believe they should not.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Since I never play games with surrender, why would I go look it up? I just ask and the more decent people do, as you can see, answer. You and some on the other forum are the sort who will tell someone who politely asks for direction to go get a GPS or see a homeless person, roll down your window and yell to go get a job. $&@&$ idiots. Can't ever understand why, other than immaturity, would a guy read and respond to people they have already decided they do not like or are a troll or whatever. Mature people do not respond to people who they believe they should not.
    Why should you look it up? Because you had a question with a simple-to-find solution. One tends to remember things better if they do the work themselves, and research is the key to success. Your laziness is so typical of the government employee you are.

    Enjoy it here while it lasts. you've been on BJ21 for 3 years, asking the same newbie questions over and over again. That's why just about everyone there either ignores you or replies to you with sarcasm and insults. People here will tire of your laziness soon enough, too.

    Re the GPS analogy, I answered that one on BJ21 for you previously. But since you are incapable of looking it up yourself, here's what I said:
    I have no problem giving someone directions if they ask. However, if that same person asks for the same directions over and over again, then they are on their own.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Why should you look it up? Because you had a question with a simple-to-find solution. One tends to remember things better if they do the work themselves, and research is the key to success. Your laziness is so typical of the government employee you are.

    Enjoy it here while it lasts. you've been on BJ21 for 3 years, asking the same newbie questions over and over again. That's why just about everyone there either ignores you or replies to you with sarcasm and insults. People here will tire of your laziness soon enough, too.

    Re the GPS analogy, I answered that one on BJ21 for you previously. But since you are incapable of looking it up yourself, here's what I said:
    I have no problem giving someone directions if they ask. However, if that same person asks for the same directions over and over again, then they are on their own.
    First, no one, and certainly not me, is asking YOU anything. In fact I am pleading with you to not read nor write about anything I post. Second, I have posted on both forums and gentlemen, be it Stanford Wong, Don S., Norm have ocassionally commented, often did not participate but have never ever tried to Cyber Bully others as you do. You probably learned much about being an AP from them but you never learned much else, particularly about being a gentleman.

    As regards my analogy, if no one is asking YOU for directions, you do not need to take it upon yourself to punish them. No one appointed you the boss.

    Stop being so conceited and tell folks what to do and please stop lying. Go read my posts this month on both forums. Lots of people replied and with answers/suggestions. There will always be bullies around who claim that it is their playground and you are a cyber bully who cannot resist coming over to my posts and trying to bully me. Good luck.

  9. #9


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    Hey, again, ZB

    You noted that $10 tables are less desirable to you than $25 tables due to side bets and perhaps some other negative factor. Someone noted that you might be referring to a more crowded table at lower limit tables as a negative. Was that the point you were making or was there some other thing(s) about $10 tables that you didn't like.

    I definitely have seen that $10 tables are far more crowded than $25 tables and, in fact, in all the smaller places I've played, you will be playing alone or with only 1 other person most of the time at the $25 tables. This can be a longevity problem because you stick out more than at a lower table.

    I'm just curious if I'm missing something.

    Thanks!
    SiMi

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMi View Post
    I definitely have seen that $10 tables are far more crowded than $25 tables and, in fact, in all the smaller places I've played, you will be playing alone or with only 1 other person most of the time at the $25 tables. This can be a longevity problem because you stick out more than at a lower table.
    But you can get in and out hitting your desired EV in much less time. That is a longevity increaser. It all depends on the individual casino.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMi View Post
    Hey, again, ZB

    You noted that $10 tables are less desirable to you than $25 tables due to side bets and perhaps some other negative factor. Someone noted that you might be referring to a more crowded table at lower limit tables as a negative. Was that the point you were making or was there some other thing(s) about $10 tables that you didn't like.

    I definitely have seen that $10 tables are far more crowded than $25 tables and, in fact, in all the smaller places I've played, you will be playing alone or with only 1 other person most of the time at the $25 tables. This can be a longevity problem because you stick out more than at a lower table.

    I'm just curious if I'm missing something.

    Thanks!
    SiMi
    x

    its true that there is much less crowding at Dd games without side bets or at higher minimums. I love playing in Missouri where it seems that if you have a card, if you are local and semi-regular, and your spread is decent, you don't get heat. I don't camouflage, bet with the count (play $25 min. at neutral counts, move up exactly 1 unit per true count, thus $$50 at TC2, $75 at TC3, $100 at TC4 and $125 as max bet. Absolutely no cover. In Mo, they cannot back you off. They do half shoe you or worse if you are not using a players card and are the hit and run sort whose max bet at a $25 min. Table is in excess of $400 and your spread is larger than 1-5.

    I have been playing and observing now for 2 years. It's only when I am heads up and winning that the PB might whier or tap the dealer and penn decreases to 50%. When I am playing with larger betting ploppies, they never bother me.

    They cannot not know that I count. They just don't wish to piss off the other players and as long as my wins remain small, they leave me alone. There are a couple of others that also move with the count.

    these policies are very good, the casino still makes money.

  12. #12


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    Howdy, ZB!

    I play on the West Coast and I just don't see surrender. I was playing at Reno a while ago and an older, Asian guy who spoke no English had a 16 v 10 and he made the 'surrender' sign below his cards (draw a horizontal line below your cards) and the Dealer just looked at him like a deer in a spotlight. She asked him if he wanted a hit and he, again, drew the line. The game had completely stopped for this. Finally, I said, "He wants to surrender." and the Dealer said, "What's that?"

    I'd love to hear from others who play in areas where surrender is common.

    SiMi

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMi View Post
    Howdy, ZB!

    I play on the West Coast and I just don't see surrender. I was playing at Reno a while ago and an older, Asian guy who spoke no English had a 16 v 10 and he made the 'surrender' sign below his cards (draw a horizontal line below your cards) and the Dealer just looked at him like a deer in a spotlight. She asked him if he wanted a hit and he, again, drew the line. The game had completely stopped for this. Finally, I said, "He wants to surrender." and the Dealer said, "What's that?"

    I'd love to hear from others who play in areas where surrender is common.

    SiMi

    Alive and well on the East.
    There is no glory in practice, but without practice there is no glory . -Unknown

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