thoughts on being 86ed

[What me worry]

I have emailed 2 guys (without naming names) putting on Bj courses about the content of their course what count I use, how I play, where I play. What I should do in preparation for their course. The response back I got was odd to me and I still don't agree with it and makes me wonder what other bad advice I might get. The kicker was "Don't worry about being backed off it happens and its going to happen." I play in rural areas I haven't played in Nevada in over 10 ten years. I'm sticking to my guns my gut and the old veterans of this sport of trying not to get 86ed pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. What is everyone else's thought I'm not a pro but I'm a little more than just a casual counter as well.

[RS]

One sentence, without context, isn't a whole lot of help. Yes you'll likely eventually get backed off, but that doesn't mean you should play recklessly. But you also shouldn't play scared. It's different for everyone. Some people might not care at all if they get backed off, they'll just go to the next town. Others might want to ensure they never get backed off (or a low chance of a back off).

[Three]

I don't like being 86ed.

[bigplayer]

It's a balancing act, always, but it is true, backoffs are inevitable. If you're playing with a real edge your cumulative win will eventually get the casino's attention. Milking that "special game" is often dangerous because another player with a more aggressive philosophy will come along and destroy it. Remember, your competitors are other advantage players, the casino is your customer.

[SiMi]

Hi Alfred E Neuman!

I think you're on the right track.

To me, this sounds like yet another case of the "1-3 local joints Part Time Professional Player" (PTPP) meets the "hit and run Full-Time Pro" (FTP). I believe there are MAJOR DIFFERENCES in the approaches and it's a mistake to get advice from the typical FTP when you're a PTPP.

If you need longevity measured in YEARS, then you need advice from a PTPP and NOT from a FTP. If you plan to play full time and move around a lot, you will play MUCH DIFFERENTLY than if you visit the same 1-3 joints every week or so.

This came up recently in another post where a PTPP mentioned Opposition Betting (OB) and a FTP disagreed with OB. The FTP can't mess around with OB but the PTPP MUST do things like that. You need to ID the style of play you need for your situation. Sadly, there's very little info for PTPP.

Stick to yer guns, pardner!
SiMi

[What me worry]

Thanks Simi, I put a lot of thought into how, and when I play, my style etc... I'm not trying to cripple any store, although the feeling you get on a max unit bet splitting and d.a.s. and winning and doing it again and again is sometimes hard to contain yourself. I really appreciate the camaraderie here and the willingness to help and or point someone in the right direction. I did a google search one time of what the creators of MAD magazine meant with the what me worry saying (As an interrogatory, indicative of a nonchalant attitude towards potential criticism, not caring about what other people think, confident and self-possessed) and that's me at the bj table.

[SiMi]

Hi, again, Al!

Yes, I get it. That's pretty funny. I loved MAD magazine growing up. I really liked 'Spy vs. Spy' cartoons and the parodies, especially one I recall about Start Trek (TOS).

If you're playing at local stores that you hit often, you can't 'cripple' them in short order without getting the boot, I'm afraid. Especially in a small to medium place, you need to be VERY aware of what they can tolerate and how you're perceived. I'm a big fan of trying to be an asset to them and bringing business to them in various ways. I want the staff to smile when they see me (if they recognize me...) . This requires a specific set of skills that are not immediately obvious and seem to be rarely discussed because of the focus on the aggressive FTP rather than the PTPP.

The fact you put a lot of thought into this shows by the question you asked and that you were 'interviewing' your potential teachers in advance of signing up. Very smart! If someone is a FTP, they may not be able to teach you the skills you need to succeed as a PTPP. If they don't know the difference, you have to wonder... Again, there's not much on this topic out there at the moment.

Anyway, I enjoyed your pen name and appreciate the brief trip down Memory Ln.

Thanks!
SiMi

[marriedputter]

I'm a PTPP. I am definitely doing anything and everything that I can do to NOT get 86ed! Yesterday, I played at a place that actually says "green action" (little paranoid are we?) Anyway, knowing that they are nervous in advance, I played a green as my first four bets. A green is 2 1/2 units for me (yeah yeah I'm still a red chipper, shut up).

Anyway, I lost all of them. I then cashed in for another $100 and started playing two hands with greens. Then one hand, then two hands again. I basically wanted my bets to look really random and I made sure that the pit saw. I made back this money on my random betting, then proceeded to play more responsibly the rest of the night. This is something that I had never done before and probably would rarely if ever do again as you could easily throw money away in the name of cover. I am glad that I did it though because I have won the last 5 out of 6 visits at this place.

This may be a little extreme, but I want to play for years at these places. They are also competing heavily with each other so I see games with better rules coming. I do NOT want to be 86ed. Inevitable? We'll just see about that.

[mofungoo]

That's called "laying cover" and can buy more playing time when done correctly. There are many ways to lay cover - verbal, body language, betting patterns, ploys, etc. If the casino decides to evaluate your play and they see you are betting high when the count is up, you're done there. At least for a while

[Dieter]

I play in rural areas

You can probably bet a little more aggressively than you are. From what I've seen, a lot of places out in the hinterlands are a bit more tolerant than we give them credit for.

Hit and run is great if your goal is to make your lifetime of money over the next 2 years get 86'd everywhere while doing so. It sounds like this is not your goal.

If your goal is to make free dinners and pocket money off the same handful of stores for the next 10 years, then yes - keep it low key.

If you feel you must get 86'd, do it at a place that you don't want to play long term, and make sure they're not a sister property to your home stores that shares backoff information and player card notes. (Hit and run on one or two places can be useful to pad your bankroll.)

Depending on your local store's tolerance, you may be able to play modestly 3 weeks a month, and somewhat aggressively 1 week a month. Since you're not consistently hammering the pants off them, they may gleefully endure it, figuring that you'll eventually lose, "like you're supposed to". It's especially useful if you have an excuse like "it's tax refund time, so imma try it big today".

[What me worry]

That is exactly what I was doing interviewing them I wanted them to earn my business. I am sure they are really good at their game but maybe not at what I want to become better. Sometimes I can over think my situations and then you bring things into play that don't exist and my mind gets a little clouded. I have seen someone on here mention a class to paid members has anyone been to that particular class or seminar which ever the case may be.

on another note did you know Alfred E Neuman had been around about 30 years before the first issue of M.A.D. I believe he was called the gap toothy kid.

Hi, again, Al!

Yes, I get it. That's pretty funny. I loved MAD magazine growing up. I really liked 'Spy vs. Spy' cartoons and the parodies, especially one I recall about Start Trek (TOS).

If you're playing at local stores that you hit often, you can't 'cripple' them in short order without getting the boot, I'm afraid. Especially in a small to medium place, you need to be VERY aware of what they can tolerate and how you're perceived. I'm a big fan of trying to be an asset to them and bringing business to them in various ways. I want the staff to smile when they see me (if they recognize me...) . This requires a specific set of skills that are not immediately obvious and seem to be rarely discussed because of the focus on the aggressive FTP rather than the PTPP.

The fact you put a lot of thought into this shows by the question you asked and that you were 'interviewing' your potential teachers in advance of signing up. Very smart! If someone is a FTP, they may not be able to teach you the skills you need to succeed as a PTPP. If they don't know the difference, you have to wonder... Again, there's not much on this topic out there at the moment.

Anyway, I enjoyed your pen name and appreciate the brief trip down Memory Ln.

Thanks!
SiMi

[Orangechip2]

Depending on your local store's tolerance, you may be able to play modestly 3 weeks a month, and somewhat aggressively 1 week a month. Since you're not consistently hammering the pants off them, they may gleefully endure it, figuring that you'll eventually lose, "like you're supposed to". It's especially useful if you have an excuse like "it's tax refund time, so imma try it big today".

Very solid advice. When I sense heat or I am getting "re-rated" with my big bets out I'll typically say something along the lines of " I hit the (such and such side-bonus) at x casino the other day". That's one of my classics.

[Aslan]

...

Hit and run is great if your goal is to make your lifetime of money over the next 2 years get 86'd everywhere while doing so. It sounds like this is not your goal....

First, let me say I know what you meant, but I am posting so that no one will get a false idea about the hit and run style of play.

It is true that some hit so aggressively that they are likely to go down in flames at every store they play. That is not properly called hit and run, but is better characterized as hit and crash, because it does not care one whit about surveillance. It's mantra is "push it to the limit"; if you don't get backed off, you're doing something wrong.

But hit and run is a methodology that is crafted for longevity, else, "Why run?" There are differences in hit and run techniques, but it is more a matter of degree. A hit and run AP might be more aggressive if he does not plan to return to a store for several months or years. But other APs might play the same store within weeks or even days of his or her last session there. The more often they play a store, the more camo they may use, the more attention they may pay to work shifts and names/faces of dealers and pit people where they play and the length of time they play per session. For a hit and run AP who frequents a particular casino, to play more than one period of max bet is an engraved invitation to get backed off. It's like a buck deer just standing there posing for the space above the mantelpiece as the hunter draws a bead on him.

I bring all this up because I believe a hit and run player who pays attention to detail can last as long or even longer than a play long player. The play long player is often concerned about comps, which means he seeks longer sessions. But to do so, he or she must constantly play with camo and subsequently lowered EV. Also, to obtain comps he must use a player's card. This means the house has a record of his wins and losses over time. In some cases, it does not matter whether a player is identified as a card counter, he's still screwed. One major casino ordered surveillance to back off all long-term winners at Blackjack. I suppose the notion was either that if players win long-term they must be doing something (card counting, shuffle tracking, ace steering, hole carding, marking cards, or ways of cheating too numerous to mention) or they might just be lucky. Yes, I believe some casino managements believe in luck. There are three kinds of people they do not want: (1) dishonest, (2) intelligent, and (3) lucky. Virginia is for lovers; casinos are for losers-- present company and the AP community excluded.

The real difference between hit and run and play long is both situational and preferential. Situational because if you don't have a number of casinos to pick from, you can't very well play hit and run. Preferential because if you want to build comps and/or don't want to travel frequently between pits and casinos in various places, and/or enjoy staying in one or a few spots, you won't want to play hit and run. In places where surveillance is weak, a play long style can be just as lucrative as a hit and run style, since EV sapping camo is not that much of an issue. I doubt if any hit and run AP would continue in their style of play in such places, because his style is one style that is forged out of necessity.

As always, YMMV.