Spanish 21 vs. Traditional Blackjack

[Blitzkrieg]

Does anyone know if a greater edge can be attained in Spanish 21 games vs. traditional blackjack games with similar decks and rules?

[mcallister3200]

I'm going to assume you mean a similar house edge when you say similar rules, the rules of the two games are not going to be at all similar. IF you can get away with a massive spread yes. The effect of removal is less for everything but the ace so for the same spread the answer would be no. Spanish there is also going to be potential for more gain from indices than regular blackjack.

Refer to Kat Walker's book and threads posted on bjinfo for more/better information. Given a greater gain from play variation and a significant increase in effect of removal of the ace compared to other cards, a specialized or multi level count may be more appropriate for Spanish than regular blackjack if you're going to invest time attacking this game. Zenmaster flash has posted a count he uses in the comments of the discountgambling.net Spanish page, perhaps it is on a bjnfo thread somewhere as well.

[Blitzkrieg]

I'm going to assume you mean a similar house edge when you say similar rules, the rules of the two games are not going to be at all similar. IF you can get away with a massive spread yes. The effect of removal is less for everything but the ace so for the same spread the answer would be no. Spanish there is also going to be potential for more gain from indices than regular blackjack.

Refer to Kat Walker's book and threads posted on bjinfo for more/better information. Given a greater gain from play variation and a significant increase in effect of removal of the ace compared to other cards, a specialized or multi level count may be more appropriate for Spanish than regular blackjack if you're going to invest time attacking this game. Zenmaster flash has posted a count he uses in the comments of the discountgambling.net Spanish page, perhaps it is on a bjnfo thread somewhere as well.

Thanks for the response. I was wondering if a player had to use a specialized count to take on this variation of BJ. I'll check out some of the posts you recommended.

[Three]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering if a player had to use a specialized count to take on this variation of BJ. I'll check out some of the posts you recommended.

Advanced counting techniques are more effective for Spanish21 than BJ. Even the keep it soimple crowd admit tat is not the best approach for Spanish21.

[Blitzkrieg]

Advanced counting techniques are more effective for Spanish21 than BJ. Even the keep it soimple crowd admit tat is not the best approach for Spanish21.

Advanced counting techniques such as...?

[Three]

Given a greater gain from play variation and a significant increase in effect of removal of the ace compared to other cards, a specialized or multi level count may be more appropriate for Spanish than regular blackjack if you're going to invest time attacking this game. Zenmaster flash has posted a count he uses in the comments of the discountgambling.net Spanish page, perhaps it is on a bjnfo thread somewhere as well.

This expresses what I was saying.

If Flash had posted a count there it is gone now. He posted the EORs for Spanish 21. They look funny though. I am used to Katrina's betting EOR's which have been challenged. I haven't seen an agreement on another set of EOR's. The ones Flash gave are quite different than any I have seen for both H17 and S17. Flash doesn't share his count with but a few APs in a tight circle of trusted friends or those that helped develop it. I know the count and was curious if he had posted it. If he posted any count it is gone and I doubt he posted his count.

[mcallister3200]

You are going to want to be looking for either the stand 17 version more commonly found on the east coast or the h17 version allowing redouble(this version will carry higher variance) common in northern California and Pacific Northwest for a house edge of 0.3-0.4%. H17 without redouble is about 3/4% disadvantage of the top.

[biggg]

In Spanish PE is more important than regular bj because 12-14 are the most common hands. In bj you are never hitting most of these especially with a big bet out but in Spanish you do (or don't).

Unfortunately the ace is by far the most important card for BC and needs to be over weighted to have decent BC.

Some kind of side count of aces will actually make a big difference even against 8 decks whereas it's probably not worth it in reg bj.

If you just play this for comps and fun just use hi lo with the aces as minus 2 and learn the most important indices.

The edges are smaller than bj in any case unless you get great pen, great comps, or the dealers give up early surrender (have seen all of these).

[Three]

There is more to getting a big advantage than just edge. One thing is casino tolerance to just about everything. You can find some tolerant BJ games but they aren't necessarily easy to find but carney games generally aren't watched as closely as BJ. The reason is the degree of skill it takes to beat them and the fewer number of people that have the skillz and try to use them. If you look at table limits you can see that most carney games have smaller table maximums than BJ offerings. This helps keep down the need to hawk these games for the rare AP's that are real threats.

[Tarzan]

8 decks, -32 off the top of the shoe boggles my mind... ever see that movie "Scanners" where the peoples heads are exploding?Hahaha

[Blitzkrieg]

Does anyone know which hands are commonly misplayed in Spanish 21 strategy wise under rules which may allow doubling on 3 cards? Or which hands are difficult to remember to play correctly?

[Gronbog]

In my experience, most of the ploppies play as if they were playing blackjack, which is not to say that they play blackjack basic strategy, but that they play their normal plopified version of the basic strategy for normal blackjack. They do recognize that they can double on more than 2 cards and they do this using the same rules that they would use for 2 card hands. They also recognise that they can surrender after doubling, but they seem to do so randomly and much too often.

Other commonly misplayed hands:

• Most double on far too many soft hands, even by blackjack standards
• Most will double 9 vs 3 and 4 and 10 vs 9, but will not double 11 vs A
• Most do not hit all hard 12 and all hard 13
• Most do not hit 14 vs 2 and 3
• Almost no-one surrenders 17 vs A, but they will surrender many stiffs vs a variety of dealer up cards
• As with blackjack, most do not hit soft 18 vs 9, 10 and Ace.
• Most will split 6,6 vs 2 and 3

There are no really difficult departures to memorize. The main 2 card departures are only a few and are easily spotted on a color-coded strategy chart. The multi-card departures are learned in a way similar to learning counting indices. Having said that, very few players seem to change strategy for potential bonus hands when they should, except for 7,7 which many hit when they should split. In particular, most will double multi-card 10 and 11 when they should hit.

Misplaying potential bonus hands doesn't hurt them very much, as they are relatively rare. The other errors are much more serious.

[Blitzkrieg]

In my experience, most of the ploppies play as if they were playing blackjack, which is not to say that they play blackjack basic strategy, but that they play their normal plopified version of the basic strategy for normal blackjack. They do recognize that they can double on more than 2 cards and they do this using the same rules that they would use for 2 card hands. They also recognise that they can surrender after doubling, but they seem to do so randomly and much too often.

Other commonly misplayed hands:

• Most double on far too many soft hands, even by blackjack standards
• Most will double 9 vs 3 and 4 and 10 vs 9, but will not double 11 vs A
• Most do not hit all hard 12 and all hard 13
• Most do not hit 14 vs 2 and 3
• Almost no-one surrenders 17 vs A, but they will surrender many stiffs vs a variety of dealer up cards
• As with blackjack, most do not hit soft 18 vs 9, 10 and Ace.
• Most will split 6,6 vs 2 and 3

There are no really difficult departures to memorize. The main 2 card departures are only a few and are easily spotted on a color-coded strategy chart. The multi-card departures are learned in a way similar to learning counting indices. Having said that, very few players seem to change strategy for potential bonus hands when they should, except for 7,7 which many hit when they should split. In particular, most will double multi-card 10 and 11 when they should hit.

Misplaying potential bonus hands doesn't hurt them very much, as they are relatively rare. The other errors are much more serious.

The multi-card departures are a bit difficult to learn if this is what you meant... Like a 3 card 17 vs. a dealer A. It's hands like that which are slightly confusing.