I'm switching counts: speak now or forever hold your peace

[Nikky_Flash]

I'm not going to advise you in what direction to take , but I did switch counts myself when I was in a similar situation as you ... about 9 months or a year in ... at that time , some great people from the forum were giving me great advice on a number of different things , so keep making friends .

and just to let you know , at first I was a little concerned I would not be good enough to go to keep up with level 2 system quickly, but I was wrong . I was just concerned because I had never tried.

Switching to a new count / even a level 2 count / was not as difficult as I had heard it to be from some books and writings...
(working through email with a few excellent mentors ) I did have issues with side-counts though, and after some time trying things/ I recognized that isn't my strong "suit" (pardon the pun) ,
so the fact was , I was probably not good enough to side count things while keeping a level 2 count . (at this time, maybe in the future)
"Know thy self" - everyone has strengths and weaknesses , what are YOU in particular , good at , what are you not-so-good at ? try all these things first , before you decide if you are "good at it"

I had issues with that , so to keep a strong count ,but understanding I wasn't strong with side-count , the best Idea ;
I went with a level 2 count with no-side counts /
of course you will make mistakes at first when you switch , but , just make them at home .
if you're smart enough to do a count correctly and do basic strat perfect-now , which it sounds like you are , then ; after a few weeks or a month, you will fly though a deck in 30 seconds no matter what you choose , maybe you are one of those guys that can handle all the side-counting and doing 3 or 4 or 5 different things in your head , and have no problem , even better !
if not , then just pick one and go with it like the guys here are saying , any count that wins you money is a "good enough" count... this is a long journey anyway , maybe even a lifelong quest ... so you have time to try things at home ... well, just my two cents ,
gotta go ...
... best of "luck"

[mrw464]

I use REKO, so obviously I am going to suggest just sticking with Hi Lo. There's an expression I heard a lot in my ROTC days - KISS. Keep it simple, stupid. The less brainpower I'm using on a count, the more brainpower I can devote to other aspects.

[Bodarc]

Here is what someone who is in the Blackjack Hall of Fame had to say on the subject. You might want to read it. Scroll down until you see Advice To New Card Counters.

http://www.richardmunchkin.com/searc...max-results=50

[Avincow]

Dang guys, you are really making this a difficult decision for me...I'm torn now. I'm leaning a little bit towards sticking with Hi-lo. Here's what I'm thinking:

1. I can theoretically make a few extra bucks in the double deck game with Zen, or just stick around for a few extra minutes with Hi-Lo.
2. No matter how fast I am with Zen, I will always be faster with Hi-Lo. With Hi-lo I can play faster heads-up
3. Plus it will be easier to keep count with Hi-Lo. I still gotta worry about the small talk, situations where i can only get a quick glance a the cards, fatigue, etc.

[RS]

Practice with CVCX and make a playlist with your favorite songs (on like iTunes or YouTube or Pandora....can't play music through CVCX unfortunately). Sing along while playing. You'll get real good real fast.

Edit: I meant CVBJ not CVCX.

[ZenKinG]

Dang guys, you are really making this a difficult decision for me...I'm torn now. I'm leaning a little bit towards sticking with Hi-lo. Here's what I'm thinking:

1. I can theoretically make a few extra bucks in the double deck game with Zen, or just stick around for a few extra minutes with Hi-Lo.
2. No matter how fast I am with Zen, I will always be faster with Hi-Lo. With Hi-lo I can play faster heads-up
3. Plus it will be easier to keep count with Hi-Lo. I still gotta worry about the small talk, situations where i can only get a quick glance a the cards, fatigue, etc.

You just answered your own question. HiLo is the way to go.

[Three]

1. I can theoretically make a few extra bucks in the double deck game with Zen, or just stick around for a few extra minutes with Hi-Lo.
2. No matter how fast I am with Zen, I will always be faster with Hi-Lo. With Hi-lo I can play faster heads-up
3. Plus it will be easier to keep count with Hi-Lo. I still gotta worry about the small talk, situations where i can only get a quick glance a the cards, fatigue, etc.

As someone that uses a counting system that is so insanely hard that few could even do it I can tell you this is not true. In the short term yes but if you can do something accurately with enough practice you can do it as fast as you can do anything else. I guess I can't speak for everyone but I suspect those that found different never put in enough practice or enough playing time. The time may be a very long time so like I said in the short run your statements are accurate.

I side counted cards from the start and used more complicated approach than most all my career. So my base line of what is easy may be what many consider to be hard. I actually have trouble keeping the count with an "easy" count because my brain gets bored and starts to wander. Everyone is different and they have different capabilities. Just find what you think is best considering you strengths and limitations at this point and go with whatever that is. Be sure to consider all the pluses and minuses presented here. If you can never count down multiple tables at once that is not a plus. If you think you can develop that skill add that asa plus to HILO and try to develop that skill. If you determine you will never be able to do it after the attempt to learn it remove it from the pluses and reevaluate. This ability is extremely valuable if you play where it is feasible to attempt it. If you want to upgrade and need more skillz work on those skillz and don't consider upgrading until you have mastered the skillz necessary to do so. If you can't master them than you never need to upgrade to that system.

A plus not discussed here is that if you believe you can side count, the gain from side counting any card is proportional to the original PE of the count. Obviously HILO with one of the worst PE's of any count will not be ideal to use with side counts. If you are not planning on side counting it is neither a plus or minus for either count.

Make your analysis based on what your strengths ands weaknesses are and based on the applicable pluses and minuses to what you can do along with what you might try to do. If a plus is something you might try, start working on it now as your upgrade. You will either be successful and improve your game or fail and remove a moot decision point from the pluses and minuses to make a better informed decision.

[Bobcat]

Some additional practical points to consider about sidecounts: You don't need to keep a sidecount in your head at all times since other means are available (hands, feet, chips, ...). To implement a sidecount at a specific decision, you don't necessarily need to calculate a corrected value for the main count; it's generally sufficient to decide whether the sidecount "pushes" the main count to the other side of the threshold value for that decision.

[22 Dreams]

Dang guys, you are really making this a difficult decision for me...I'm torn now. I'm leaning a little bit towards sticking with Hi-lo.

Well, I can't resist playing devil's advocate and making your decision more difficult.

As Tthree indicated, with enough practice, you can play a level 2 count just as fast as level 1. It's the dealer, especially in Vegas, who will slow you down. Fatigue? I've never felt any different after hours of using Zen vs using REKO, my first count. If you have difficulty quickly adding numbers from 4 to -4 even after a lot of practice, then maybe it's tiring. I wouldn't know so I may not be a good source on this point.

Do you see a future of many hours counting two tables at once or traveling all over the country with your team and kicking ass with a massive spread? Maybe we should do a poll and find out how many people are currently playing on successful teams and how many would recommend team play.

Until you use CV Data to generate indices for Zen, you will not have accurate numbers to compare systems. I don't think the pros who use Zen are just "chasing pennies".

For the record, I'm actually not saying that you should switch to Level 2 or saying that choosing a counting system is super important. I don't know what's best for you. Your success (or lack of it) won't depend on the system you choose. I just felt like responding to some arguments that, in my view, are not very strong and get repeated over and over again.

[mcallister3200]

Whatever you do, do not use the true edge version if switching to Zen. What's whether or not you play on a team got to do with counting two tables simultaneously?

[Jabberwocky]

Eventhough he designed a few systems, Uston always played RPC. So did Don S.

[ZenKinG]

I do get fatigued with my current count after enough hours. The EV gain I got in the time it took to be fatigued I can eat a nice dinner and get a full nights sleep and still be well ahead of the EV of the linear approach to the same 2 counts That played the entire time. It varies from day to day but anywhere from 5 to 8 hours in I at least need a break for a while. Your count while not have any kind of gain like this. It might take an hour or less to extra play with the simpler approach to even up the EV for a 5 to 8 hours of play.

But while you rest, the HiLo player just cranked in 15 hours straight, in which half of those hours he was counting multiple tables simultaneously and killed your EV without the headache.

HiLo >

[Frank Galvin]

***Are you saying Uston opted for simplicity in RCP (level 2) as opposed to his count (level 3), or are you saying both Uston and Don opted for a more advanced count (level 2) vs something like hi-lo?

I, myself played RCP for 18 months before switching back to hi-lo, which is what I started with. My conclusion was that RCP which was popular in the 80's and 90's was probably beneficial at the time, with the games that were available, but with today's games, much less beneficial. ***

KJ - Excuse me for being somewhat slow this evening, but what the heck is RCP? You were playing a system for 18 months that I have never heard of before. I looked on the counting system strategy tables on qfit, but could not find it. Please share more detailed information.

Although I am nowhere near the stage of Tthree, Tarzan and Moses (but am dedicated to getting to playing a columnar approach, and I know, Tthree does something different), I truly appreciate any information that others can provide as to different counting systems.

I understand that most on this forum disagree with expending time to learn more "complex" or "difficult" systems beyond HiLo, Zen, KO, REKO. But, I find the intellectual component of being able to master a new system in a short period of time, shall we say, challenging and enjoyable. Mind you, I may decide I do not prefer to deploy some information/system I learn, but, I have lived by the belief that the day I stop learning is the day I stop breathing. So please indulge and education me as to the tag values and concepts of RPC.