Calculating TC in Spanish 21 ?

**Nikky_Flash** · 02-11-2015, 09:01 AM

that's a big help guys , I appreciate it much

.... with that modified hi lo , how would Walkers index plays line up ? ......because her system is unbalanced ,

**moo321** · 02-11-2015, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Nikky_Flash

that's a big help guys , I appreciate it much

.... with that modified hi lo , how would Walkers index plays line up ? ......because her system is unbalanced ,

You'll need to do new index plays. The overweight of the Ace is going to mess up your most important index plays (surrenders).

**Nikky_Flash** · 02-11-2015, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by moo321

You'll need to do new index plays. The overweight of the Ace is going to mess up your most important index plays (surrenders).

oh wow ,
in that case I should just stick with FELT , because I bought norms extra charts /chapters with the sp21 index charts for Felt ... i don't know how to make index charts myself ... especially for sp21 ...and I've been using felt in real life for some time now , comfortable with it anyway ...
thanks for the help !

**Nikky_Flash** · 02-11-2015, 11:27 AM

I'm guessing in sims , felt will outperform hi-lo , in Walker's method , ? right ?

**moo321** · 02-11-2015, 11:41 AM

I would guess that felt is better than Hi-Lo unbalanced, which is not a good count for SP21.

**Nikky_Flash** · 02-11-2015, 04:29 PM

thanks tthree , I only have index charts for Walker's system and felt ,( I'm also really fast with felt , use it for bj all the time )
and I'm not quite great at figuring index out for this stuff... always used books or kind- helpers would email me them ,
so for a new count , if someone wants to send info to my email I'll be your new bff -
( I erased the address after a while ----------)

**Frank Galvin** · 02-12-2015, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Tthree

Walker's system was the first baby step. It is not that powerful. If you want simple go with Moo's advice. If you have the counting chops that most in the keep it simple camp haven't developed and want something that uses those skills. There are lots of custom counts that are much stronger but nobody is really sharing them on the internet. Basically they make the playing count ace neutral and either side counts aces or keeps a balanced side count of aces. Like A -2 with 2 and 3 + 1. The nine is usually thrown into the playing count for various reasons like having 4 low cards balanced by 4 high ranks.

In BJ counting the 9 messes up IC (you rarely if ever take insurance in SP21), it messes up your most common index plays of hitting 12 v 2-6 (in SP21 you always hit 12 no matter what) and it hurt the BJ prediction of the count (it hurts in SP21 as well but you bet 33% more BJ in regular BJ). The 9 helps with the surrender decisions a lot more in SP21 since the dealer busts far less often in SP21. The 9 will always bust you if you are considering surrender and it will make the dealers hand if it is the dealers hole card. Against an A it is the most important card concerning surrender since you know the dealer doesn't have a BJ.

Moo may be right about adding the 9 to an ace reckoned count but adding it to an ace neutral playing count is almost a given.

Tthree, I am curious as to your perspective as to how either of the Advanced Omega II or the Victor APC (similar to Uston APC) counts would work with SP21, since both are Ace Neutral with 9s already provided a -1 tag value.

AO2 Tag Values (Ace Neutral with a SC of As).
A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2

VAPC Tag Values (Ace Neutral with a SC of As).
A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0, 2, 2, 2, 3, 2, 2, 0, -1, -3

Would still need to generate index numbers for deviations from basic strategy for the game.

**moo321** · 02-12-2015, 06:06 AM

rmwlaw, I don't think those counts are good because they overweight the ten. The ten still has similar BC, but the Ace is the key betting card in SP21. So I think tthree's suggestion of side-counting the ace and keeping the 9 in the main count is probably the best "next step up" system from what I proposes, which is the keep it simple system.

If you want to go buck-wild (and you might be that kind of person), I think side-counting the mids (7-9) for playing hard 12-14, and the aces for betting would yield significant gains. Then keep 2-6 vs. tens (unbalanced) modified by the ace richness for betting. Or you could keep 3-6 vs. tens (balanced) modified by the ace richness for betting.

I'd guess your gain from properly running such a system is probably 50% more than my count. Maybe double. I would never try it or recommend it, but it certainly could be attempted, and unlike blackjack, the gains MIGHT be worth it.

**Frank Galvin** · 02-12-2015, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by moo321

I'd guess your gain from properly running such a system is probably 50% more than my count. Maybe double. I would never try it or recommend it, but it certainly could be attempted, and unlike blackjack, the gains MIGHT be worth it.

"running such a system is probably 50% more than my count."

1. To which system are you making reference?
2. Which method is your count?

Just trying to dissect your comments and understand them.

**moo321** · 02-12-2015, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by rmwlaw

"running such a system is probably 50% more than my count."

1. To which system are you making reference?
2. Which method is your count?

Just trying to dissect your comments and understand them.

1. Tags:

2-6=+1
10=-1
Ace=-2

2. I don't know of any official name for it.

**Frank Galvin** · 02-12-2015, 06:49 AM

Do you generate index numbers for that system? If so, using Norm's software? Have you already done so? Curious as to how many deviations from the basic strategy for this game are called for by applying a linear counting system to it.