When in a tournament, since I count anyway, should one use counting, BS or just worry about the bets?
What say you?
i heard counting doesnt help much , cuz some lady next to you will go - all in every hand and get lucky and kill it ! you need a strategy to handle strange stuff that different than - " long term grind - slight advantage " ... there's a special strategy for tourney play - I'm sure there's a number of guys that know a lot more about it that are willing to help , I think gronbog and some others know some good strategy behind it , there's also some books with strategy listed - did ken smith post something online for tourney play ? or in a book , I forget ? good luck...
I concur. Thanks.Originally Posted by muffdiver
General consensus is that counting is VERY little help in tourneys. However, I always say it's a habit, so why not do it? Bigger concerns are things like the opposition's BR (chip stack), bet position for later hands, etc.
My Ability in Blackjack is a Gift from God!!
There are at least three camps on counting during tournaments: Those who swear by it, those who ignore it and those for whom it depends on the situation. My opinion is that counting for the purpose of gaining an edge in EV or for making index plays is useless in tournaments, for a variety of reasons. At the end of the day, the strength of strategic betting/playing strategy outweighs any marginal benefit in EV by a wide margin. In accumulation style events, where you play against the entire field and not just those at your table, the task of estimating your goal is your number one priority and, once accomplished, the strategy of going for it with maxbets (all-in if no max) from the start is far more powerful than waiting for a good count (if it ever even comes).
I do believe that counting for the purpose of identifying counters (camp 1 above) at your table can, however, be extremely useful. It may be helpful in predicting when they are likely to raise their bet in situations where you are betting before them. So, I often count during the early hands in an effort to identify these players and then, if I detect any (rarely), I put that knowledge to use during the middle rounds. That puts me firmly in the 3rd camp. The end game is all about strategic betting/playing and at that point I focus my mental resources on that alone.
So, in summary, there are a number of tasks that you should focus on before worrying about counting.
- Tracking the relationship between your chip stack and those of your opponents, sometimes down to the last chip.
- Observing your opponents and figuring out their game plans (if any).
- Formulating your own plan of attack/defence based on the above and making the proper strategic bets and plays throughout the tournament round.
If counting interferes with your ability to do any of the above in any way, then it should be the first weapon in your arsenal to be discarded.
Last edited by Gronbog; 02-03-2015 at 11:57 AM.
The strategy in tournaments is against the other players not the dealer. In accumulation rounds there isn't much change in playing strategy and betting is basically max bet until you hit your goal. You either hit that goal or bust out trying. When playing against your table to advance bet sizes are best decided by what others have, how many rounds are left and position at the table. When you bet and/or play after your biggest competition that is when you can really use some strategy to make a move or block another's move to catch you. Again bets are best made independent of the count generally speaking. There are more important concerns to base your bet upon. And by playing according to both what the other player has and the dealer is the strongest playing strategy. That makes for some weird plays especially as the end nears or you feel this is the time you must get a big swing or you basically have no chance of achieving the sessions goal. Decisions are about giving yourself the best chance to reach that session goal whatever it is. Often that is the opposite of what counting would tell you to do. Counting is based on the long run to average everything out to be ahead. Tournaments are about giving yourself the best odds in the short run. They are two very different things.
If you can keep track of the others chip stacks. And keep track of how position will be changing if playing against the table. And keep track of what your needs are as you get closer to the end of the session. And have the discipline to not have the counting interfere with making the right plays and bets. All while counting than counting is an option. If it interferes with any of these counting is a detriment to your chances in the tournament. Remember the goal of a counter is to make the right bets and plays to be ahead waaaaaay down the road. The goal of a tournament player is what is happening during the duration of that session. The goals of counting and tournament play are usually not overlapping sets and only overlap by coincidence.
I've gotten to the point of using smaller ramps in tourneys than in regular play. It's a result of having a good count **** me up too many times on final tables. Also, for the last few hands of each session, I usually throw the count out the window because at that point it's all about bet correlation (no matter the count).
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