Identity theft

[Aslan]

So, do I have this right? Are the referred to Mac and Machinist one and the same? I met Machinist at one of CP/Ouchez's bashes and had no problem with him either, but I also had no problem with CP, for that matter. Seems like Machinist farmed in both IL and GA if I remember correctly. He had CP convinced that slots could be APed but I just couldn't (still can't) buy into that idea. Zen, I don't think I've met.

I found a number of machines that Mac said could be AP'ed in Delaware casinos. I also ran into a crew that was working a group of the machines. I made money each and every time I played these machines following Mac's guidelines. I know for a fact that certain ones can be AP'ed. The casinos eventually removed these machines in Delaware. Was it because of the crews working them? Crews can be quite hostile to ploppy players. I had one machine hustler in Vegas actually knock me out of a seat as I was sitting down. When a machine is ready to pay, they can become very aggressive. Security chased after this "bird" around the Red Rock casino.

[muffdiver]

I found a number of machines that Mac said could be AP'ed in Delaware casinos. I also ran into a crew that was working a group of the machines. I made money each and every time I played these machines following Mac's guidelines. I know for a fact that certain ones can be AP'ed. The casinos eventually removed these machines in Delaware. Was it because of the crews working them? Crews can be quite hostile to ploppy players. I had one machine hustler in Vegas actually knock me out of a seat as I was sitting down. When a machine is ready to pay, they can become very aggressive. Security chased after this "bird" around the Red Rock casino.

Why am I thinking that if we start a "slot AP" thread, that Norm will put it in the voodoo section with an even brighter yellow background?

[Aslan]

Why am I thinking that if we start a "slot AP" thread, that Norm will put it in the voodoo section with an even brighter yellow background?

haha Not many machines are subject to predictable results, although I'm sure Mac knows more than most on the subject. The machines I learned were those that have residual benefits, and what Mac did was figure out when these benefits had risen to a level that made the machine +EV. On 4 machines in particular, they never ceased to yield a profit when they reached a certain threshold level. I was convinced he knew what he was talking about.

The idea of residual benefits is a lure to keep the slot player engaged, but few understand the reasoning as to when a particular machine is ready to pay off. Clearly benefits cannot continue to accrue without there being a line at which they become +EV. Mac's genius is in being able to figure out where that line is. All I can say is, "It works." It's just like at a particular point in card counting you reach a line where the benefits out weigh the risk. It's definitely not voodoo.

[Norm]

Why am I thinking that if we start a "slot AP" thread, that Norm will put it in the voodoo section with an even brighter yellow background?

Nope. Golden Nugget in the old days had some that paid over 100% when you timed them correctly. A lot of locals knew this and hung around waiting.

[muffdiver]

Nope. Golden Nugget in the old days had some that paid over 100% when you timed them correctly. A lot of locals knew this and hung around waiting.

Timed correctly------------voodoo? not voodoo?
I just hope that not many people are aspiring to be slot APs. For those that are, my bridge is still for sale.

[Norm]

Did you know they took the word, "gullible" out of the dictionary?

[Aslan]

Did you know they took the word, "gullible" out of the dictionary?

I almost believed you.

[Tarzan]

I've watched this whole thing evolve over the years also, not really knowing exactly what pissing match who was having with who and only cognizant of it as dull noise in the background. WTF are we a bunch of old wash women down by the river or something that we are supposed to stay aware of peoples various personality clashes? I like the idea of a forum being strictly about blackjack without any political or religious debate which ends up being quickly turned into an episode of "The Jerry Springer Show" in a big majority of instances! I've never quite understood this whole thing or paid much attention to it. Feudal wars between two forums? Is that it? What is the pissing match all about? Can't we all just get along?

Bring a bunch of political/ideological into the equation under the most innocent of circumstances... a family get together backyard barbeque can become a complete fiasco, a get together with friends becomes a rude brawl, people go all kinds of "New Jersey" on each other like ravenous dogs and forums are perhaps not immune? Forums can maybe get clotted up with useless political or ideological drivel that turns into something hostile also?

Remember that phrase, "Corporations are people too, you know"? How about "Forums are people too, you know!" Hahaha I can't condone any sort of threats, hate speech, personal prejudices, weird quirks, personal attacks of anyone against anyone else for any reason. This unfortunate clash of personalities between a few key individuals, all of whom I've known or known of for years is troubling to me and bothers me. I don't know the full details on how it really even came to these animosities and try to stay with the topic that I'm here for, blackjack.

[Aslan]

I've watched this whole thing evolve over the years also, not really knowing exactly what pissing match who was having with who and only cognizant of it as dull noise in the background. WTF are we a bunch of old wash women down by the river or something that we are supposed to stay aware of peoples various personality clashes? I like the idea of a forum being strictly about blackjack without any political or religious debate which ends up being quickly turned into an episode of "The Jerry Springer Show" in a big majority of instances! I've never quite understood this whole thing or paid much attention to it. Feudal wars between two forums? Is that it? What is the pissing match all about? Can't we all just get along?

Bring a bunch of political/ideological into the equation under the most innocent of circumstances... a family get together backyard barbeque can become a complete fiasco, a get together with friends becomes a rude brawl, people go all kinds of "New Jersey" on each other like ravenous dogs and forums are perhaps not immune? Forums can maybe get clotted up with useless political or ideological drivel that turns into something hostile also?

Remember that phrase, "Corporations are people too, you know"? How about "Forums are people too, you know!" Hahaha I can't condone any sort of threats, hate speech, personal prejudices, weird quirks, personal attacks of anyone against anyone else for any reason. This unfortunate clash of personalities between a few key individuals, all of whom I've known or known of for years is troubling to me and bothers me. I don't know the full details on how it really even came to these animosities and try to stay with the topic that I'm here for, blackjack.

It's exactly that-- a family get together backyard barbeque in which discussions of religion and politics turn it into a fiasco. As I recall, they have security personnel on the Jerry Springer show to keep the participants from harming each other. Imagine the JS show without the security and you have that website minus the physical contact. It's a verbal brawl.

[Norm]

The machines guaranteed that you would get your money back if you played ten hands without a win. Good gimmick. They had counters that showed consecutive losses. If the counter hit ten, you got back your ten coins. Of course, you could lose eight coins and then get a winner of one coin, and the counter would reset. So, they still had a house advantage. But, players that didn’t understand the machines would walk away with a counter at nine. At that point, you can’t lose on the next hand. And with lower counters than nine, you still had odds heavily in your favor.

Problem is, some really grimmy looking locals were often hanging around the machines and the casinos had to spend time chasing them off as it was creepy. Here's a situation where I think it makes perfect sense for a casino to ban an AP. These guys didn't actually change the overall edge. But, it started looking like the lobby of a flophouse.

[muffdiver]

Thanks for the explanation. My guess is, that you don't encourage people to make "slot AP" a livelihood.

[moo321]

Thanks for the explanation. My guess is, that you don't encourage people to make "slot AP" a livelihood.

No, it's not a full-time gig. It's an opportunity that you may spot every once in awhile while scouting for other things.

[Exoter175]

No, it's not a full-time gig. It's an opportunity that you may spot every once in awhile while scouting for other things.

I disagree entirely, and the basis for that is entirely valued on the ratio of AP slots to Ploppys playing them, divided by the number of "hustlers" or "Slot AP's".

Here's the thing about Slot AP'ing. You have to know every square inch of the building, and you have to COVER It, constantly on the move. You have to know where every single machine is, who your competition is, what numbers they "come up with" on a given play, which "plays" they play, and their schedule. It is incredibly complex and "difficult" but like counting, with repetition and practice comes ease.

The +EV charts on some of these plays are so absolutely ridiculous they make ANY count in blackjack look like chump change by comparison. It is absolutely, hands down the best AP play in the building at any one time, the problem is the number of "plays" you'll acquire.

As an example, do you know what the +EV is on a 10 play dime DDBP Ultimate X machine with 3x mults on every hand? That's a pretty "common" find, I find one at LEAST every day. Its astronomical, is what it is. Some of those Ultimate X games are known to reach +EV plays greater than a 724% advantage for the play.

Lets use another example for a moment here. Saturday I went into my local place during bad weather, half expecting every play to be taken, but came to find out that no other Slot AP's had been in the building. I played approximately 23 hands of Ultimate X Poker, all with a max pay-table "sub max" bet receiving a multiplier. By the time I was done on those 12 machines, approximately 7 minutes of cycling and playing, and the ticket reader giving me grief, I had gained $97.25

Later that same day, I waited on another "Slot AP play" called "Rock around the clock". I picked this machine up at the equivalent of 11:15 and was just 80 cents into the game before its guaranteed "accumulator" bonus was given out, of which has attached progressive shots. I don't know the +EV on that specific play as it would constantly be manipulated by the progressives associated with it, however, getting on it at 11:15 is about as "guaranteed" as you're going to get for a money maker in the casino, and it just so happened to take me two spins to get there. During the bonus, I had cleared out ~$7.50 from the "credit" game and hit the progressive "switch" and cleared out the ~$124.50 progressive.

I spent about a grand total of 30-40 minutes that day on "Slot AP" stuff and ended up "leaving" up $28X.XX

Most guys that I know that "Slot AP" as a full time gig make about 85-115 a day average, with Sun-Wed being closer to 45-60 per day, and days like Saturday being about as close to 200 a day as you can get.

Again, though, it entirely depends on your surroundings. It would be absolutely impossible to "full time" Slot AP on these specific machines in downtown vegas as they are over crowded and the "Silver Miners" or "Seagulls" have pretty much killed every play out there. If you're like me, however, and you live far away from Vegas and in a state that also has "pay by progressives", then you'd probably make a pretty comfy living "full time" as a slot AP in a casino that gets moderate action with only a "few" "hustlers".