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Thread: Pennsylvania Card Counter Litigation

  1. #1


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    Pennsylvania Card Counter Litigation

    I am posting this for an AP friend who is a long time BJ21 member, but not a member here. He asked me to post this for him. I've known him for almost 30 years and have teamed with him in the casinos over the years. I am just the messenger here. Feel free to post any comments you may have, but if you want to get involved directly or want some further info, use the email address in the post below:


    Many of you may know me through my posts of years gone by. Others may not know me at all. I am an attorney in the Philadelphia area and a blackjack devotee. To date, no one has raised and fully litigated in the Pennsylvania courts the issue of whether or not a casino may unilaterally and arbitrarily refuse to deal the game of blackjack to a customer. We all know that the casinos routinely do just that when they believe that a customer is a “card counter” or otherwise has a long term statistical advantage over the casino. And in a great many cases they have little or no evidence to support that belief. (“When in doubt, kick em out”) It is my opinion that the casinos do not have this right in Pennsylvania and that the chances of getting the courts to confirm that, although certainly not guaranteed, is substantial. Similarly, there are open issues in Pennsylvania with respect to the circumstances under which a casino may “evict and exclude”.

    Quite recently, I was barred from playing blackjack at Parx Casino. I personally know others who have also been barred and I am sure there are many more than those I personally know.

    I am in the process of preparing to file suit in Pennsylvania to hopefully resolve the issues of barring, eviction and exclusion. I have not yet decided on the precise form that the action will take.

    The purpose of this post is to seek out others who have been barred at Parx or any other Pennsylvania casino who would be willing to be named as plaintiffs in the proposed action and who would be willing to testify under oath regarding the circumstances of their barring, eviction or exclusion. I will handle all of the legal work pro bono.

    If you are willing to at least explore joining in with me on this case, please contact me at [email protected]. Exploring the possibility obviously does not obligate you to go forward.

    I am sure there will be many comments in response to this post, both for and against the concept. I suspect some will argue that this suit is a fools folly and that all that I will accomplish, even if successful, will be to make the Pennsylvania games as bad as those in New Jersey where Ken Uston successfully pursued an action like this so long ago. To those people, I understand and respect your point of view, but I don’t agree with it. Other than what I just said I do not, at this time, plan to engage in a public debate about the pros and cons on this or any other forum. I already have at least one plaintiff (not me) willing to go forward with this case and therefore the case will go forward whether others join or not. I will be glad however to discuss the pros and cons with those who respond privately to this post. Thanks and good cards to all.

  2. #2


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    From my understanding it is legal to count cards in Pennsylvania casinos. However, even though card counting is legal some casinos tell you to leave or request that you follow them to an office. It is rarely that casinos will ask you to leave politely. The casinos will persistently annoy, attack, or bother card counters. They will use violence to try to harm card counting when barring them. If a casino request you to follow them to an office it is most likely that you will be harass. Because most of the time there will be security guard that will terrify you to death. Then they can will label you as cheater. If you attempt to enter the building the will arrest you for trespassing. The casino is already violating the rights of the card counter even if they didn't break the law. This I agree to take legal actions against the casino.

    In my perspective I don't mind if the casino manager comes up to me and ask me politely and respectfully and say "sir you are too good of a player may I ask you to step away from the table." If they do it in an unrelentingly harsh and severe way like harassing me than I will sue with all cost. Otherwise I will go find other counting opportunities. If doing this will make PA games rules as bad as those in New Jersey, well than be it.
    Last edited by seriousplayer; 01-22-2015 at 04:04 PM.

  3. #3


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    Reading the article made me think I was in GC.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    From my understanding it is legal to count cards in Pennsylvania casinos. However, even though card counting is legal some casinos you to leave or request that you follow them to an office. It is rarely that casinos will ask you to leave politely. The casinos will persistently annoy, attack, or bother card counters. They will use violence to try to harm card counting when barring them. If a casino request you to follow them to an office it is most likely that you will be harass. Because most of the time there will be security guard will terrify you to death. Then they can will label you as cheater. If you attempt to enter the building the will arrest you for trespassing. The casino is already violating the rights of the card counter even if they didn't break the law. This I agree to take legal actions against the casino.

    In my perspective I don't mind if the casino manager comes up to me and ask me politely and respectfully and say "sir you are too good of a player may I ask you to step away from the table." If they do it in a unrelentingly harsh and severe way like harassing me than I will sue will all cost. Otherwise I will go find other counting opportunities. If doing this will make PA games rules as bad as those in New Jersey, well than be it.

    Its legal to count cards on every inch of US soil in the world.

  5. #5
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    By taking on this case and filing a lawsuit do you think your friend will be essentially black listing his name for every casino in the U.S.? He should do what he thinks is right. I don't think it is right for the casino to bar him but I am under the notion that they can refuse service to anyone they want. If he does follow through with this I think he may have a hard time finding a casino in Pennsylvania that is going to give him action because he knows the casinos all talk amongst themselves. I hope he has a good disguise and he may really come to find out the true meaning of "camouflage" as it pertains to blackjack.

    Unless there is a big compensation to be made in this lawsuit I would drop it and continue to hit other Pennsylvania casinos. I would give it some time to cool down and come back and hit Parx Casino at a later date with a disguise and play unrated to push the casino back from a players perspective. Change hair color, etc if it means that much to the player at hand.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; 01-22-2015 at 04:00 PM.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    By taking on this case and filing a lawsuit do you think your friend will be essentially black listing his name for every casino in the U.S.?
    We mostly play anonymously, so it doesn't matter.

  7. #7


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    I think he actually has a decent claim, based on the PA regs. They're similar to the regs in NJ that allowed Ken Uston to win. Gaming has exclusive jurisdiction to regulate gambling in PA, so he could argue that the casino doesn't have the right to regulate who can gamble.
    The Cash Cow.

  8. #8


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    4 Pa.C.S.A. § 1202

    (1) The board shall have general and sole regulatory authority over the conduct of gaming or related activities as described in this part. The board shall ensure the integrity of the acquisition and operation of slot machines, table games, table game devices and associated equipment and shall have sole regulatory authority over every aspect of the authorization, operation and play of slot machines and table games
    The Cash Cow.

  9. #9


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    By taking on this case and filing a lawsuit do you think your friend will be essentially black listing his name for every casino in the U.S.?

    No. This is the reason counters used to give for not suing casinos when they were abused. It is total BS. Look at JG. He has not only sued Caesars, but also Gaming and the police. And he is still able to play far more hours per year than I would ever want to. Tommy Hyland has sued numerous casinos and he still plays.

    The question is not whether counting is legal. The case is about whether they have the right to throw you out.

  10. #10


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    The PA regs are almost identical word for word in many cases to NJ regs, I wouldn't be surprised if they also had an equivalent to NJSA 5:12-70 designating which areas of casino operation the CCC is to regulate (inclusive of the rules of the games) also. if they did it seems like it could be a slam dunk.

  11. #11
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    Interestingly, I think most states used NJ regs as a basis for their regs, instead of Nevada regs. IIRC, even the Kahnawake Gaming Commission in Canada, which regulates many online casinos in the Caribbean, based its regs on NJ regs.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by RWM View Post
    By taking on this case and filing a lawsuit do you think your friend will be essentially black listing his name for every casino in the U.S.?

    No. This is the reason counters used to give for not suing casinos when they were abused. It is total BS. Look at JG. He has not only sued Caesars, but also Gaming and the police. And he is still able to play far more hours per year than I would ever want to. Tommy Hyland has sued numerous casinos and he still plays.


    The question is not whether counting is legal. The case is about whether they have the right to throw you out.
    For the "greater good of AP community," to sue or not to sue?

    An AP has a right to his own personal preferences/opinions, as in I like Doctorbj to win, but to each his own. Others (such as RS) curse him out and wish him to lose.


    RS wrote: "I hope he [DoctorBj] does not win the case...I want to know what the f*** this guy is thinking. "
    http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling-outside-vegas/atlantic-city/20755-a-freebie-class-action-lawsuit-for-pa-and-ac-bj-players-who-have-been-86ed/#post426903

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrianno View Post
    For the "greater good of AP community," to sue or not to sue?

    An AP has a right to his own personal preferences/opinions, as in I like Doctorbj to win, but to each his own. Others (such as RS) curse him out and wish him to lose.


    RS wrote: "I hope he [DoctorBj] does not win the case...I want to know what the f*** this guy is thinking. "
    http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling-outside-vegas/atlantic-city/20755-a-freebie-class-action-lawsuit-for-pa-and-ac-bj-players-who-have-been-86ed/#post426903
    RS wrote: "If they can't 86 you, then they'll just flat bet you. And getting flat betted is almost as bad as getting 86'd, since you essentially can't play BJ there anymore (why would you flat bet?)."

    According to the code:

    4 Pa.C.S.A. § 1202

    (1) The board shall have general and sole regulatory authority over the conduct of gaming or related activities as described in this part. The board shall ensure the integrity of the acquisition and operation of slot machines, table games, table game devices and associated equipment and shall have sole regulatory authority over every aspect of the authorization, operation and play of slot machines and table games.

    Reading from above how I understood it is the PA Gaming Control Board is the one who regulates whether flat betting a player is allowed. To a certain extent, the code did state that the "board shall ensure the integrity of the acquisition and operation of slot machines, table games, table game devices and associated equipment and shall have sole regulatory authority over every aspect of the authorization, operation and play of slot machines and table games". Flat betting a player because he has an advantage is against adhering to high moral principles or professional standards of 4 Pa.C.S.A. § 1202.

    The only thing they can do is refused the regulation stated in 4 Pa.C.S.A. § 1202 since it is not a benefit to them or any other tricks. This way the player will need to take legal action against the PA gaming control board.

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