First Back Off

[Drake]

I just started playing BJ more seriously and got my first back off pretty fast, and I am playing small stakes $5-$100
Was at 2D off strip in Vegas.

Did I just get unlucky? - 10 minutes before it happened a dealer got mad at me because they thought I was pulling back chips after they started to deal (when I was actually trying to put more on, and thus pulled it back since you aren't allowed to after they start dealing). Pit boss told me to take chips back. Anyway I think the dealer went on break and complained about me and thus they probably looked to see if I was cheating and then realized I was counting.

I didn't use any cover. I just bet what I was supposed to (except mixed up my max bet a little from 75-100).

Is it not advised to go back to the casino? or should I wait 1 month, 3 months, a year?

Now that its happened once, I'm hesitant to bet as much of a spread at other places, eventhough I haven't noticed any heat. Every time the pit phone rings I think they are calling down about me, but they obviously aren't. Do you just get used to it, and go about your business. I'm not trying to make a profession out of it, so doesn't really matter if I get backed-off from a bunch of casinos, but I don't want to encourage it. But I also don't want to have to use much if any cover.

[KJ]

I just started playing BJ more seriously and got my first back off pretty fast, and I am playing small stakes $5-$100
Was at 2D off strip in Vegas.

Did I just get unlucky? - 10 minutes before it happened a dealer got mad at me because they thought I was pulling back chips after they started to deal (when I was actually trying to put more on, and thus pulled it back since you aren't allowed to after they start dealing). Pit boss told me to take chips back. Anyway I think the dealer went on break and complained about me and thus they probably looked to see if I was cheating and then realized I was counting.

I didn't use any cover. I just bet what I was supposed to (except mixed up my max bet a little from 75-100).

Is it not advised to go back to the casino? or should I wait 1 month, 3 months, a year?

Now that its happened once, I'm hesitant to bet as much of a spread at other places, eventhough I haven't noticed any heat. Every time the pit phone rings I think they are calling down about me, but they obviously aren't. Do you just get used to it, and go about your business. I'm not trying to make a profession out of it, so doesn't really matter if I get backed-off from a bunch of casinos, but I don't want to encourage it. But I also don't want to have to use much if any cover.

A couple thoughts: Double deck games are often watched pretty closely in Vegas. Off strip properties are no exception to this. A 1-20 spread ($5-$100) is a pretty big spread for a double deck game. Many of us that play DD regularly, keep our spreads in the 8-1 range, sometimes even lower because these games are watched closely. Granted, you are talking low limit play and one would hope that red chip play would be more tolerated, but that $100 top wager is the first of several key thresholds where many places begin to take notice. You probably would have done better with a $5-$75 or $5-$80 spread, keeping max bet below that $100 threshold, although these are still pretty big spreads for a DD game. If you are going to play this range I would recommend a $10-$75 or $10-$80 spread. Second issue is, how long did you play? DD games require fairly short sessions to avoid heat. Once or twice through your bet spread and you need to move on. If you just sit there going through your spread and then back to minimum wager many times, you make it very easy for anyone to detect you. If you do insist on playing a little longer and going through several bet cycles, it is important to not always go back to your minimum wager at the shuffle. Doing so just makes it too easy for them.

A couple things you should know: Depending on what off-strip property you are speaking of, it may be a chain, (stations or Boyd properties) in which case, if you were playing rated (having given your players card) you could be marked at all other sister properties. Were you playing rated? How long should you wait? Well, you can probably play unrated at that property in as little as a month. Just play a different shift. But, don't go back to that dealer and pit guy for much longer period of time.

Backoffs can be intimidating the first few times. But they happen. Try to learn from them. Learn what limits are tolerated and what aren't as well as time frames, how long you can play.

[Dif]

I am playing small stakes $5-$100
Was at 2D off strip in Vegas.

Did I just get unlucky?

Not unlucky. This is 100% normal for the place you're speaking of. Re-consider your spread size, max bet, and playing time in relation to the size of casinos you play at. It takes a bit of experience and might take a couple back-offs to get a good feel for it, but that's part of the learning process. Ideally you never want to get backed off of course, but if you're not testing the limits, you can't max out your EV. A delicate balance...

or should I wait 1 month, 3 months, a year?

Learn to game the shifts. All you need is a different shift and you will golden even on the same day, unless you REALLY hose yourself or it happens a couple more times. And everything KJ said is golden.

[Ouchez]

Drake,

In this case I believe it was the dealer that squealed, and the rest is as you stated,,,happens more than most realize. Best to leave a table than piss off a dealer.

Unless you play as KJ does, which means you have to pretty much live in Vegas, the possibility of playing with CCing skillz, to win, for any length of time is getting slimmer and slimmer.

Ouchez

[Drake]

I do live in vegas, and not trying to break the bank, just fun to see if I can mimic the simulation's results in real life . The property I got backed off from I was unrated whereas most other places I play rated and they don't seem to care one bit if my spread is 1-20, well maybe 1-18 ($5-$90). Of course, I went on a big down swing since switching to REKO and logging everything a while back, and they have a record of it obviously when rated, so maybe they don't care since they still have some of my money.

I know 2D can draw more heat, but I haven't noticed decent penetration on 6D at any casinos, and lots of places have switched to 8D or the lame CSMs.

[KJ]

Your spread was waaaay too big for double deck. KJ is the expert at your locality. If it is a very good DD game you should play even shorter sessions time wise.

Thank you for the kind words, Tthree, but certainly no expert here. Just a guy plugging away, putting in too much time.

I do live in vegas, and not trying to break the bank, just fun to see if I can mimic the simulation's results in real life . The property I got backed off from I was unrated whereas most other places I play rated and they don't seem to care one bit if my spread is 1-20, well maybe 1-18 ($5-$90). Of course, I went on a big down swing since switching to REKO and logging everything a while back, and they have a record of it obviously when rated, so maybe they don't care since they still have some of my money.

I know 2D can draw more heat, but I haven't noticed decent penetration on 6D at any casinos, and lots of places have switched to 8D or the lame CSMs.

Drake if you live in vegas and intend to play regularly, then you really need to change your approach. You aren't going to last long with 1-20 and 1-18 spreads on DD games at these local type stores. I don't know how much time you have put in using these spreads, but if you continue, you will have many backoffs/barrings and really won't be able to get in much action, even at these low limits.

As far as shoe games, while it is true that conditions at many low limit games are not great, with some switching to 8 decks and some CSM, there are still some good low limit 6 deck games around and even some decent 8 deck games with pretty good pen. I might advice buying a copy of Stanford Wong's Current blackjack conditions newsletter to steer you in the right direction. The biggest problem with these games, when you locate them, is they will be more crowded than $25 table, which will slow play down considerably. Try to grow your bankroll to the point that you can play $25 tables regularly. If you are currently spreading $5-$100, then switching to a $25-$150 spread for DD games, doesn't require that much more bankroll. Moving up in level to green was the single biggest improvement in my game. Better games with better rules in some cases and less crowded conditions for quicker play. Also you have access to so many more tables, for moving around and playing short sessions.

[moo321]

I don't agree that the spread was too big. I think the max bet was too big. 5-75 stays under the radar at a lot of places. Even 5-90. As long as you don't get "checks play" called. Don't cross $100 at those smaller places. And don't bet green at Fitzgeralds or they'l call "green action" (I kid you not).

[KJ]

Disagree Moo. This might be ok, if you pop into town once a month or even less frequently, but if you live here and play these local places regularly, like the OP intends, it's not going to work for long.

Also, there is no fitzgeralds... The D resort seems to be just a smidge better and more tolerant, although there really is no basis for this as it is mostly the same dealers and floor folks. Maybe a slight change in attitude at the top. ???

[moo321]

Disagree Moo. This might be ok, if you pop into town once a month or even less frequently, but if you live here and play these local places regularly, like the OP intends, it's not going to work for long.

Also, there is no fitzgeralds... The D resort seems to be just a smidge better and more tolerant, although there really is no basis for this as it is mostly the same dealers and floor folks. Maybe a slight change in attitude at the top. ???

Why not? Just put on a hat, play for half hour at each place, and if he gets back off, come back in a month on another shift.

The alternative (spreading 1-8 red) is minimum wage considering how bad some of those downtown games are.

However, I'm also assuming he doesn't want to play rated. That changes things a bit.

[bigplayer]

best approach for a $10-$100 double deck would be to play mostly green $25-$100 and drop to $10 in negative counts after losing a hand. Alternatively spread $10-$90 always keeping red chips on top of your green chips...off strip their cameras will not be able to tell what you are betting unless you win and the dealer breaks your bet down. Off the strip the range of action varies greatly. I think you were also unlucky to start getting scrutiny...anytime a misunderstanding like that arises you probably should just end the session and come back on the next shift.

[Drake]

Thanks for all the comments. Like I said, I'm not really doing it for the money (I mean I want to make money, but I don't need the money). I have the bankroll to be betting 20x the amount I do, if I wanted to get really serious, but I'm a bit too lazy for that - i.e. short sessions, back counting, wonging out, learning more indexes etc.! So I think I'm going to go with more like $10-$80 at off strip/downtown, and $25-$150 if I hit the strip.

[KJ]

Oh completely agree about spreading 1-8 red, Moo. Wasn't suggesting that at all. I just think if you are going to spread $5-$100, you might just as well play green and spread $25-$150, maybe like bigplayer said, drop to red during negative counts. If you decide to play green without the drop to red in negative counts, you may get the benefit of some better (rules) and less crowded games. This is really out of my play level, so I will defer to your experience or anyone that plays that level.

For what it's worth, when the OP mentioned playing off strip, I kind of was thinking station/boyd type house more than downtown. It makes a difference because of the sister property effect. If playing downtown or any Indy properties, I agree, just whack em, and deal with it next month, although again, maybe not for someone who lives here.

[Ouchez]

Disagree Moo. This might be ok, if you pop into town once a month or even less frequently, but if you live here and play these local places regularly, like the OP intends, it's not going to work for long.

Also, there is no fitzgeralds... The D resort seems to be just a smidge better and more tolerant, although there really is no basis for this as it is mostly the same dealers and floor folks. Maybe a slight change in attitude at the top. ???

Ah!! The "D" resort...they are advertising, (billboard), this "NEW" casino all along I-75 in MI. and calling it the latest Detroit Casino in Vegas,,,still trying to figure out their advertising campaign. Are they using a Detroit theme in that casino???

Ouchez