When Do You Give Up On a Shoe? (Backcounting)

[Pokerplayer]

Thanks for the explanation! I've recently been scouting local casinos and introducing myself to live casino play after months of practicing blackjack by myself. I decided to sit down and only stay at tables if the count stayed neutral to positive and probably had a 1-5 spread doing this. Is there a source that gives an optimal spread for using the white rabbit techniques because this sounds like it would work best for my local casino as well when compared to back counting and my limited starting bankroll.

[Exoter175]

Not a problem Pokerplayer! Ask away.

Yes. It could be -1 or -2 TC. It's up to you. If it goes to a TC of -2 early in the shoe (6 deck), I usually leave pretty quickly because it takes more cards to get back into positive territory when you're early in the shoe. If it is a TC of -2 and there are only 2 decks left or so, I hang around because it doesn't take much cards to get back into positive territory at this point. If it goes any lower though, I am out no matter what.

I am a big believer in white rabbit because if the count goes low, this means big cards came out. If big cards came out, this means that you have likely won those hands! The bad part is that you have likely been betting your minimum, but so what? At least you have won those hands and can now take off to a potentially more promising table. I believe this technique is less obvious than wonging in and out. Another benefit is that it makes it harder to track you if you are constantly jumping around.

The great part about wonging in and out though is that you can place the same bet repeatedly since you are only playing at high counts. You don't necessarily need a spread. Of course, this is more obvious to the pit so that is the trade off. For my casino and tastes however, I white rabbit.

I disagree with two things here, ever so slightly.

1. I don't believe that wonging is anymore obvious on subject of bet placement. If you're without a spread and placing the same bet over and over, it'll take a considerable amount of man hours to ever figure out you're a counter.
2. I don't believe that "jumping around" is any kind of defense or deterrent against "tracking" you. If anything its likely more "telling" than anything. Ploppies don't table hop nearly as much as a white rabbit will, and it likely won't be the EITS who catches you, it'll likely be a pit critter whose had an eye on players all night, and has seen you bouncing around frequently with chips in hand.

I will say though, I've adopted this approach myself over the last 3-4 months or so and it works out pretty well. I think its imperitive to adapt a certain skill set on top of the monotonous game we play. Cover being the bigger of the skill sets, rat-holing chips being another.

[Exoter175]

Thanks for the explanation! I've recently been scouting local casinos and introducing myself to live casino play after months of practicing blackjack by myself. I decided to sit down and only stay at tables if the count stayed neutral to positive and probably had a 1-5 spread doing this. Is there a source that gives an optimal spread for using the white rabbit techniques because this sounds like it would work best for my local casino as well when compared to back counting and my limited starting bankroll.

In my short history with this game, it isn't very common to spend a lot of time at a neutral/positive count table for very long, which is why some people set the limits of a white rabbit at -1 or even -2TC, otherwise you'd be more like a "wong" than anything :P.

As for your question, I do believe Norm's software will be able to assist you with everything you'll ever want to know, as well as point you towards some things you wouldn't have learned otherwise.

[Pokerplayer]

So you're telling me that the two shoes I played that shot positive and stayed there last weekend were an outlier?!?!

It was probably bad for my expectations to get my first real world shoes shoot positive and make a couple hundred at the same time. It did help my confidence even though I know my results had little to do with my approach or technique and I still have some things to work on.

Thanks for for pointjng me in the right direction I might just buy norms software and even become a subscribed member to this site. I've been lurking for too long.

[Exoter175]

So you're telling me that the two shoes I played that shot positive and stayed there last weekend were an outlier?!?!

It was probably bad for my expectations to get my first real world shoes shoot positive and make a couple hundred at the same time. It did help my confidence even though I know my results had little to do with my approach or technique and I still have some things to work on.

Thanks for for pointjng me in the right direction I might just buy norms software and even become a subscribed member to this site. I've been lurking for too long.

I wouldn't call it an "outlier" so much, they happen pretty often, depending on what we're viewing as "length" here. It just isn't an expectation to "have". Positive counts come and go very quickly in this business, and if its maintaining a pretty positive count, that's pretty nice, though it could mean that you're getting slaughtered.

I had one positive count skyrocket and maintain for almost the entire length of a shoe, and loss my ass the WHOLE time, but those things happen, and happen they do!

In all honesty, expect to be moving a LOT with a -1TC white rabbit approach.

[ZenKinG]

-1 TC in general leave and go backcount another table. Depending on count it might be -2 depending on the tags. Just leave anywhere from a .75-1% disadvantage

[marriedputter]

Thanks for the explanation! I've recently been scouting local casinos and introducing myself to live casino play after months of practicing blackjack by myself. I decided to sit down and only stay at tables if the count stayed neutral to positive and probably had a 1-5 spread doing this. Is there a source that gives an optimal spread for using the white rabbit techniques because this sounds like it would work best for my local casino as well when compared to back counting and my limited starting bankroll.

At the end of the day, you need to find a good marriage between what's ideal and what's realistic. Therefore, I wouldn't think that there would be an exact "optimal" spread because it depends on what you can get away with at your local store. Therefore, what you can get away with IS your optimal spread (as long as it is a good enough spread to be worth $). Since your bankroll is limited, that is also a HUGE factor.
Ideally, we would all play one deck with super deep penetration and bet enormous amounts of money when the count is high and skip the hands where the count is low. Realistically though, I personally believe that constantly wonging in and out is a tell-tale sign of a counter. Like Snyder says, surveillance even has a name for these types of counters, "buzzards."
I don't have the information in front of me, Snyder provides a frequency chart for different types of counters (those who do "play all" counts, Wongers, etc). If I recall correctly, he says that you would only bet on 16 out of 100 hands if you wong in and out and play only advantageous counts. I personally can't imagine doing that. That being said however, I HAVE wonged in and out on occasion on busy Friday/Saturday nights when the pit is hectic with all the people and I feel that I can blend in.
So to answer your original question, I think that the spread would be more than if you were wonging in and out, but less than "play all." As to how wide the spread is, that is unfortunately for you to figure out based on your store. If you are a red chipper, I would think that you should be able to get away with a 1-8 spread on a 6-deck table, but who knows how sweaty they are.

[Exoter175]

-1 TC in general leave and go backcount another table. Depending on count it might be -2 depending on the tags. Just leave anywhere from a .75-1% disadvantage

If you're using the white rabbit approach, back counting, and leaving at -1TC, you're going to get caught before you know it. At least in the places I play. You'd have so much heat on you during your inaction you'd have to have one hell of a cover and exit strategy to fly under the radar.

[marriedputter]

I disagree with two things here, ever so slightly.

1. I don't believe that wonging is anymore obvious on subject of bet placement. If you're without a spread and placing the same bet over and over, it'll take a considerable amount of man hours to ever figure out you're a counter.
2. I don't believe that "jumping around" is any kind of defense or deterrent against "tracking" you. If anything its likely more "telling" than anything. Ploppies don't table hop nearly as much as a white rabbit will, and it likely won't be the EITS who catches you, it'll likely be a pit critter whose had an eye on players all night, and has seen you bouncing around frequently with chips in hand.

I will say though, I've adopted this approach myself over the last 3-4 months or so and it works out pretty well. I think its imperitive to adapt a certain skill set on top of the monotonous game we play. Cover being the bigger of the skill sets, rat-holing chips being another.

1. Agreed

2. Agreed

Maybe "tracking" is not the right word. What I meant was that it would take a dedicated surveillance member to confirm that you are counting by flat betting on different tables. Ploppies don't move around at the same rate that a counter would if they needed to wong, but they do table hop.
It should be obvious that common sense takes priority. Simply observe how often people change tables at your casino. They're not all tombstones. Jumping from table to table at twice the rate as everyone else probably would not be wise, so there are other forms of cover where you don't need to leave the table (using your phone, going to the bathroom, coloring up to go eat, etc). I use these too. Sometimes I'll spot an empty table and go to it and then 5 minutes later it fills up! I'm not going to leave that table immediately though if I do not feel that I can justify it.
I personally rat-hole as well, but oh my do you need to be careful doing it.

[Exoter175]

1. Agreed

2. Agreed

Maybe "tracking" is not the right word. What I meant was that it would take a dedicated surveillance member to confirm that you are counting by flat betting on different tables. Ploppies don't move around at the same rate that a counter would if they needed to wong, but they do table hop.
It should be obvious that common sense takes priority. Simply observe how often people change tables at your casino. They're not all tombstones. Jumping from table to table at twice the rate as everyone else probably would not be wise, so there are other forms of cover where you don't need to leave the table (using your phone, going to the bathroom, coloring up to go eat, etc). I use these too. Sometimes I'll spot an empty table and go to it and then 5 minutes later it fills up! I'm not going to leave that table immediately though if I do not feel that I can justify it.
I personally rat-hole as well, but oh my do you need to be careful doing it.

Ratholing is one of those "things" to this game that you "need" to do, but at the same time, you need to be able to develop a system around it, so that its not super obvious. The first time you ever put a chip in your pocket and the dealer catches you, you get that look of death and fear runs down your spine. Its as if you had your hand caught in the cookie jar. Nowadays, they won't see it, the cameras will rarely ever see it, and I'm so nonchelant about how I go about things, a little smile, wink, or nod and a remark of "that'll at least buy me 1 round at the bar tonight" and nobody is the wiser.

I'm on the fence about it though. Personally I feel its something you "need" to be able to do, but I also feel like it has so very little to do with the game we actually play, that one could get away just fine without it.

[Joss]

A dealer I was chatting with mentioned that a lot of the local players rat hole constantly to angle for better comps and that the pit doesn't care and/or notice. It's worth looking out for how different stores view the practice.

[Exoter175]

A dealer I was chatting with mentioned that a lot of the local players rat hole constantly to angle for better comps and that the pit doesn't care and/or notice. It's worth looking out for how different stores view the practice.

Exactly, and one of my local stores is completely okay with it. Another gets really crabby with you about always leaving your chips on the table so they can "color up" and keep the lower denoms on the table so they don't have to fill, which is BS really, because they are known to overfill their trays more than most places around here.

[Jabberwocky]

Not a problem Pokerplayer! Ask away.

Yes. It could be -1 or -2 TC. It's up to you. If it goes to a TC of -2 early in the shoe (6 deck), I usually leave pretty quickly because it takes more cards to get back into positive territory when you're early in the shoe. If it is a TC of -2 and there are only 2 decks left or so, I hang around because it doesn't take much cards to get back into positive territory at this point. If it goes any lower though, I am out no matter what.

I am a big believer in white rabbit because if the count goes low, this means big cards came out. If big cards came out, this means that you have likely won those hands! The bad part is that you have likely been betting your minimum, but so what? At least you have won those hands and can now take off to a potentially more promising table. I believe this technique is less obvious than wonging in and out. Another benefit is that it makes it harder to track you if you are constantly jumping around.

The great part about wonging in and out though is that you can place the same bet repeatedly since you are only playing at high counts. You don't necessarily need a spread. Of course, this is more obvious to the pit so that is the trade off. For my casino and tastes however, I white rabbit.

White Rabbit is my specialty in pitch games b/c of the nmde rule. In shoes, I'll watch maybe the first 75 cards. If I don't like what I see, I move on.