For the Math People ...

[Nikky_Flash]

I saw this a couple years ago .....
I'm skeptical of the "Free Energy " and new age mumbo jumbo ... but there is definitely something there ... it even looks like the masonic symbol, but with numbers arranged ...
Vortex Mathematics:
The main guy to figure this out was Mark , or Marco Rodin ...
the connection from Whole Numbers and Digital Root : such as looking at the number 13 , and it's digital root is , 4 , because 3 plus 1 is 4 .
The number 25 , would digital root , to 7 , because 2 plus 5 is obviously 7 .
interesting patterns develop when laid out this way .
just thought I'd share with the Math lovers here , at least give it a couple of minutes ,
I skipped alot of the blah blah blah at the beginning and started right with the math about 5 minutes in ...

http://youtu.be/Fbyc9JW3vtk?t=5m19s

[Jabberwocky]

The question should be, "Which counting system for which game is best?"

[Nikky_Flash]

The question should be, "Which counting system for which game is best?"

(this isn't serious )
Hasn't it been proven that besides Tarzan , Halves is the best ? For all games forever ... Halves Full Indices ... or was it Hi-opt II ace side? I forgot ... oh well , Hi-lo is the industry standard , then again , if one doesn't make errors and can handle it , a level two count might work well ...

[Jabberwocky]

The industry standard for cancer treatment has been chemotherapy. They are discovering much better alternatives.

[Nikky_Flash]

The industry standard for cancer treatment has been chemotherapy. They are discovering much better alternatives.

good point !

[Nikky_Flash]

Use $25 minimum bet per hand and 100,000 hands per year as your standard. If your not exceeding both these figures then more indices/complex strategy only makes "cents". $50/50K; $100/25k;serves the same point.

For instance, 14 vs 4 is a difference of $75 for hitting -3 versus always standing. I havent seen any significant difference that would make any Halves system more worthwhile in the sim's I've ran...and there has been a bunch. The vast improvement from Basic Strategy comes from 15,16 vs 10; 12 vs 3,4; 13 vs 2,3; Splitting 10s vs 4,5,6. Less major concerns are 12v2,5; 13v4; 14v 2,3,10,A and 15,16vsA. Doubling 10 vs 8,9,A, 11vs 9,10,A;.

I'm making a joke , because all the posts on here about which system is best ...

[Nikky_Flash]

Sadly...and if I'm pointing a finger then a thumb is pointing right back at myself. Positive runs are easy. Large or mid level bets are the reason we sat down in the first place. The rest is a road map. However, in a negative run, one falls into the trap of thinking there is more they can do when actually less is probably better. However, for a "blackjack forum" one can certainly gain advice/knowledge on a wide range of subjects. Until one draws out the big picture with sim's and spreadsheets some won't get the humor.

I started Felt about 5 months ago. and about 15 or 16 indices.. *, what do you use for your system ?

[ZeeBabar]

The industry standard for cancer treatment has been chemotherapy. They are discovering much better alternatives.

Poor analogy. For all practical purposes, the old hand held thermometer used in the 1950's was just as effective as the latest gizmo they use to check your temperature today. The latter just costs more.

If you play 100 hours perfectly using Hi-Lo and then shift to another system, any system, and play it perfectly for another 100 hours, using the same $$ action, you would probably make $100 more. You decide whether an additional $1 per hour is worth the time and effort to learn another system.

[moo321]

If you play 100 hours perfectly using Hi-Lo and then shift to another system, any system, and play it perfectly for another 100 hours, using the same $$ action, you would probably make $100 more. You decide whether an additional $1 per hour is worth the time and effort to learn another system.

Wait, did you just say something coherent and productive to the discussion? Is everything ok?

I don't think Jabberwocky was talking about what you think he was talking about.

[Three]

If you play 100 hours perfectly using Hi-Lo and then shift to another system, any system, and play it perfectly for another 100 hours, using the same $$ action, you would probably make $100 more. You decide whether an additional $1 per hour is worth the time and effort to learn another system.

Often the biggest gain from a more powerful system isn't the gain from betting the same bets. You make a little more EV and enjoy a lower risk of ruin. If you use the more powerful system with the same risk of ruin you will be betting larger bets as well as a higher per dollar EV. This can triple to quadruple the monetary gain enjoyed from betting the same bets without increasing your risk of ruin.

[mofungoo]

If you use the more powerful system with the same risk of ruin you will be betting larger bets as well as a higher per dollar EV.

OK

This can triple to quadruple the monetary gain enjoyed from betting the same bets without increasing your risk of ruin

In 100 hours? Ridiculous.

[Three]

In 100 hours? Ridiculous.

Time is irrelevant to EV. If you get an extra dollar in 100 hands you are talking an extra $3 give or take depending on what you do to gain more advantage. I said triple or quadruple the GAIN. It is easy enough to prove. First do the gain for going from HILO to HIOPT II for using the same bets then do the gain for for optimal spreads using the same BR, spread as in 20 to 1 or 15 to 1, RoR etc. Keep everything the same and use the optimal spread for both counts.

6 deck/1.5 cut off, S17, DAS, LS.
HILO full indices: 1 to 20 optimal spread (100 to 2000), 13.3% RoR, BR 100K
EV $418.50/(100 rounds), N0 23693 rounds, C-score 42.20, CE $211.01

HIOPT II/Ace side full indices: 1-20 optimal spread (107 to 2140), 13.3% RoR, BR 100K
EV $474.61/(100 rounds), N0 20856 rounds, C-score 47.94, CE $239.68

For optimal 1 to 20 spreads with these same BR and RoR in 100 rounds you gain
$56.11 or 13.41% gain.

If we alter parameters so the optimal spread HIOPT ace side is the same bets as HILO we get:
HIOPT II/Ace side full indices: 1 to 20 optimal spread (100 to 2000), 11.5% RoR, BR 100K
EV $443.50/(100 rounds), N) 20859, C-score 47.94, CE $238.36

This less risky optimal 1 to 20 spread with the same BR and bets range but 11.5% RoR instead of 13.3% RoR gains you
$25/ (100 rounds) or 5.97%.

Well you are right, the gain from an optimal bet spread with the same parameters is 2.25 times the gain from betting the same bet range optimal spread with a lower RoR. Of course different RoR or different spread ranges will alter the results some. But there is more to be gained from the bet increase than the gain from higher per dollar EV with the same bet range as before.

The caveat is for many squeezing the gain from the bet increase is not practical. Either they bet small so the increased bets will be rainbow stacks or the are betting against a casino tolerance threshold and a bet increases is not desirable. For these people besides the gain in EV from betting the same with the more powerful system they also get a significant decrease in RoR instead of additional gain in EV with the same risk profile. I used the black range bets so the parameters could be truly equal rather than close to measure the exact affect of the more powerful system. Small bettors probably could use the lower RoR more than an additional increase in EV but those already against a casino tolerance threshold may be playing to essentially a 0 RoR so a decrease in RoR is pretty meaningless to them. From their perspective the only gain to be had is the EV gain from betting the same bets.

[mofungoo]

One can look at the results of 100 hours playing blackjack and one cannot even tell from monetary results which system produced those results. KO's results may exceed the results of HO2 w/ASC in that time frame.