It's just a fact of life. The law is going to favor where the money is coming from. Doesn't mean it's right, but thinking an AP is going to get leverage in this case is naive. There would literally have to be a major beating before it turned in favor of the AP.Originally Posted by KJ
Obviously, I was writing my response when you posted, so I didn't see it until afterwards, but I have to say...good call on that one.(probably one of your easier predictions)
No it doesn't. It is pretty cut and dry. They can not legally detail you if you have committed no crime. You no longer have to suffer major injuries to win these cases. The best part of the whole thing is that they key piece of evidence is almost always the casino surveillance tapes (just as it will be in the Justin Mills case). That's not only ironic but pretty funny.
It is true that the bigger cases that involve someone getting hurt, are worth more money, so those are the ones that receive more media attention. Smaller cases are just settled before trial, and may not receive that much attention. But those smaller cases are important too. It is the cumulative effect of a number of cases lost, that makes the now corporately run industry, decide it is not cost effective to continue these illegal practices.
You are 100% right, KJ. I don't want to alienate myself on this forum. I get a lot of good info here. What I think most people know, but don't want to admit is that we are essentially outlaws when we walk into a casino. We go into an establishment knowing that we are about to break their rules. Rules that they have every right to have as a for profit organization. We go through great lengths to mask what it is we are doing. Then we leave with hopefully a good chunk of money in our pockets. I think casinos are justified in taking that sort of behavior personally. I also see how police would be in favor of the business rather than the AP. The casino has much greater influence in the community than the AP. Again, not saying it's right. Just pointing out how things likely are.No it doesn't. It is pretty cut and dry. They can not legally detail you if you have committed no crime. You no longer have to suffer major injuries to win these cases. The best part of the whole thing is that they key piece of evidence is almost always the casino surveillance tapes (just as it will be in the Justin Mills case). That's not only ironic but pretty funny.
It is true that the bigger cases that involve someone getting hurt, are worth more money, so those are the ones that receive more media attention. Smaller cases are just settled before trial, and may not receive that much attention. But those smaller cases are important too. It is the cumulative effect of a number of cases lost, that makes the now corporately run industry, decide it is not cost effective to continue these illegal practices.
I think some of the heat that AP's get stems from irresponsible play. I call it play for profit rather than play to get rich. I don't know what sort of take downs this particular person was making, but I suspect they were significantly large. I made $1000 in profit in the last two days. $1000 is enough to keep the electricity on for half the casino.For me, $1000 is pretty significant. My bank roll is big enough that I could support a much higher min bet with a resulting higher spread, but 1) I don't feel like getting backed off and 2) Getting greedy to me is like running naked through the casino saying "Look at me!!! I count cards!!!"
Anyway, it's a two way street. We are playing in the casino's sandbox. It's their rules and we are knowingly breaking them and hiding our activity. If you do it responsibly, my guess the probability of even having this situation happen to you are reduced dramatically.
My 2 cents. Please don't hate me.
So as long as I pay taxes and hire people it is okay in your book if I assault law abiding customers that I don't approve of. Do you know law abiding citizens have rights in America? Assault is assault. It doesn't matter if you are assaulting a mass murderer it is still assault and you will have to pay the consequences of the crime of assault. Oh, I forgot they bought politicians as part of your list. I guess that is a license to assault whomever you feel like it. (Sarcasm Icon)
No. It's not at all ok. Justice should be blind, but unfortunately, it's not. I think we all know this. We see unjust activity in courtrooms and by police all the time. This is just another example. It is important to recognize when you are likely to walk head first into unjust scenarios. That is what my point is.
Their rules aren't don't count. It's don't be greedy while doing it. Win a reasonable amount then go on your way and don't return too often. I think most places I play know I count cards. I would be foolish to think otherwise. I just know what they will tolerate and try to stay comfortably below that threshold. Only the real dumb casinos try to keep all counters away. The smart ones just worry about the real threats to the bottom line and don't set pen to worry about counters but rather set pen to maximize profits by getting the most hands/hour out of each table. Unfortunately there aren't that many smart casinos. But there aren't that many really stupid ones either. They are most run by plain stupid people that don't know how to maximize profits. They bar and ban ploppies or drive them away with crappy rules.
I have seen ploppies looking hard for S17 games and then rounding up all their bud playing slots and other games to go to other casinos. Meanwhile the pit is full of H17 tables that are empty. I thought it was pretty funny. I was not in the casino for BJ opportunities. I went to their competition across the street next and all their BJ tables had people waiting to play as soon as a spot opened up and their slot machines were quite full as well as the other table games. I asked one of the guys waiting to play BJ why it was so busy and he said most of the people had come from the casino across the street. I know where all those people will go first on their next trip. How much additional money did those gaming experts tell the casino they would make from the H17 tables? I bet the casino across the street has an idea of how much they lost from the H17 rule.
I guess the casino should assault the ploppies for using their brain to decide not to play crappy games that they know will lose too much money. After all the casino pays taxes hires people and bribes politicians.
While I respect your opinion, I must take exception to your perspective.
Casinos are public retail business that operate for the general public. They pick games that they can have an advantage in and set about enticing you to play them. They do not tell you that you have a disadvantage, they tout how you can be come rich (Sally Mae won $15,000 on slots yesterday!, We have paid out over $4,379,345 today).
I come to play their game by the rules they set for all to play. The fact that I win by playing by their rules IS NOT ME BREAKING THEIR RULES! To the contrary, it is them not HONORING THE RULES THEY SET FORTH! The practice is immoral at worst and disingenuous at least. This is like me learning when Walmart is offering their sales and only going when they are available. Then they find out that I know and prevent me shopping.
On their side are common law about a "man and his castle" that allow them to bar anyone for any reason or no reason at all. Does not give the right to discriminate against protected classes. But advantage players are not, nor will they ever be, a protected class.
The whole industry is so bent on "protecting" their games that they have lost sight of the cost of protection especially in blackjack. I would suggest that the cost of penetration as a deterrent to card counters is a multiple of the losses they could suffer from card counters. Their loss of revenue from such is enormous. The laws of large numbers must not have gotten across to them. Their fear of losses is a nightmare they can not substantiate. Even well respected consultants in their own industry have told them this!
All of my rantings are not going to improve this environment, but the heavy handed treatment from the casinos should be taken very seriously. You have to know, intuitively, that most egregious actions are either not pursued or settled due to the damaged player not having the resources to fight back. Developing a GoFundMe account to create a legal fund to sue casinos on behalf of players would not be a bad idea!
Enough for today.
Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!
This is a great analogy. I love it!
The fact that you can get the boot or get barred permanently is in indicator of breaking their rules. Not breaking the rules of blackjack, because that would be cheating and would be a criminal offense, but breaking their rules of conduct within their facility, I guess. Obviously, it's really lame to bar someone from attempting to use their own brain to try and win, but this is the environment we must play in.
You need to stop using terminology like: "breaking their rules". You are not breaking their rules in any manner whatsoever. You may be flagged as an undesirable customer under the "rule set" that defines their marketing strategy, much like the winner of an eating contest at a buffet. But, this is not breaking their rules.
"I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse
US Supreme Court is the LAW OF THE LAND!
Law enforcement must have at LEAST "reasonable suspicion" a crime has been, is, or is imminently about to occur to lawfully detain a person and require ID!!!
"Reasonable suspicion" is SPECIFIC, ARTICULABLE FACTS that would lead a reasonably prudent, OBJECTIVE person to conclude that a crime has been, is, or is imminently about to occur.
Therefore, the act/fact of card counting is NOT illegal, in fact it IS LEGAL!
So thus, no objectively prudent, reasonable person can rely on this LEGAL act/fact to support his/her conclusion of suspected illegality (and the detention and ID).
IT IS LEGALLY THAT "STRAIGHTFORWARD."
p.s. Don't bother asking....Yes, I am a _ _ _ _ _ _.
Tracking the cards in a manner that gives a person advantage (counting),is not breaking the rules.The casino simply does not like it .Everybody track the cards , It is just that not everybody does a good job at it. this thread is becoming interesting . Well said KJ! Thanks for the direct ,right to the point comment ,Norm.
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