What is an advantage player/advantage play?
Perhaps we need to define AP. Aspects like legality and ethicality have been mentioned. Must an AP method be legal and/or ethical? Before posting a poll, what other aspects might we consider in the definition?
"I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse
Not meaning to be a wise *** but advantage play means exactly that. Why can it not be either legal or illegal?Originally Posted by Norm
Now when it comes to ethics, there are differing opinions on what is/isn't ethical but AP has only one definition that I'm aware of.
Last edited by muffdiver; 10-08-2014 at 07:36 AM.
Legal is black and white. If its not legal you are a cheat not an AP. Ethical is grey. Any legal method that allows you to have a positive expectation in the casino is advantage play. Some AP play is just frowned upon like masturbating on an airplane. Just don't call it jacking off and you should be fine.
Legal is black and white. If its not legal you are a cheat not an AP. Ethical is grey. Any legal method that allows you to have a positive expectation in the casino is advantage play. Some AP play is just frowned upon like masturbating on an airplane. Just don't call it jacking off and you should be fine.
Let us stick to acceptable terms," Masturbating" is an accepted legal term, "jacking off" is a crude street term and should be avoided.
Also the term, "Blow Job", is to be avoided at all costs, but may be replaced with "Oral Pleasure".
Please follow these guidelines to maintain the credibility and decorum of this site.
O
All of my AP is legal, but is it ethical? Depends on who you ask - I'm sure that many in the casino industry would say all AP is unethical. I think many things the casinos do are not ethical and some of the things they do are illegal. The casino is a den of thieves, and I'm sure they think of me as one.
Lots of slangs to choose from: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...8200145AAWykXA
"I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse
I am beginning to think that casinos are moving away from the thinking of CCing and STing as being cheating, and are developing a grudging respect for these SKILLZ, and often exhibit that when you are backed off. I think HCing is a different story. I have at times been treated with respect and almost celebrity status by dealers and floor after, during, and before a playing session. This has not been the case in years past, however.
Mofungoo, do not fret, I sincerely doubt you are viewed as a thief by the casino, but then again alot of that has to do with perception, and personality can change perception a great deal.
O
Legal is certainly not black and white. If a particular technique hasn't been tested in the courts in a particular jurisdiction, you can't know with 100% certainty that you won't be found to be breaking the law. Just ask the players from the Michigan tribal case, who were using techniques that we all generally agree are perfectly fine, and in Nevada have been shown to be legal. Would you consider those players cheats? Would you consider someone a cheat if they used techniques in state XYZ that have been found legal in Nevada but illegal on a Michigan tribal property? What if that play were done at a Florida or California or Louisiana tribal property where it hasn't been tested in the courts, for example? I think there is strong reason to believe they are playing legally, but that doesn't mean they can't be convicted of cheating, especially by tribal courts.
I think advantage play is any play that gives the player an advantage. From there it is further divided into legal, illegal, and untested or gray area plays, and where a play gets categorized in that regard varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. As an example, using computers to play blackjack was an advantage play when it was first done. It was also legal. The law changed in Nevada and made it illegal, but that didn't make it not an advantage play. I can't remember who coined the term advantage play, but I think the original definition included legal and illegal ways of gaining an edge. I understand the desire of APs to emphasize the legal nature of the plays we make by trying to separate out the cheats, but there are a lot of situations the real world that are not as cut and dried as we would like. Prosecutors can be creative at times, and you never quite know what is going to stick if they decide to make an AP their personal target.
Any player today who goes beyond counting should understand that there is a small, but real, chance that they will be arrested as a result of their play. There is a smaller, but still real, chance that they will be convicted of a crime. Unless you are knowingly doing something that has already been shown to be illegal, like past posting, daubing, colluding, etc., I don't think this necessarily means you are a true cheat or that you did anything unethical. In my opinion, no one should play seriously for significant stakes unless you are prepared to be arrested and to have to defend yourself in court, because regardless of how hard we try to stay on the right side of the law, you never know what prosecutor is going to be offended that you tried to take advantage of a business in his district.
Terminology....ahhh. You can call it whatever you like. The important thing to me is receiving regularly.
Ok, back to topic at hand. Cheating, or use of illegal plays does fall under the definition of advantage play. But, I hate that it does. This is exactly the issue that the casinos have been trying to sell for years and that we have been fighting against. So why illegal methods are technically, APing, I distingue between the two.
Now moving on the ethics. I really struggle with this. Obviously a very personal and individual issue. My own 'grey area', covers things that other APs are doing regularly. Nothing illegal, but it's just not me. The casino IS responsible for protecting their games and such.
What I do find amazing is the number of people, and I am not referring to anyone in particular, but many APs definition of right and wrong seems to be altered when they enter a casino, as if passing through that door means anything goes. A couple of examples: You go to CVS and buy something and the cashier gives you the wrong change vs the dealer mispayouts. In both cases it is a low level employee, making a human error, that they may be held personally responsible for, but unscientifically, I suspect many more of us take the money inside a casino.Example number two: You are out in town when an elderly lady trying to put away her money drops a $10 bill vs in a casino, you see an elderly confused player leave $10 credits on a machine. Many people would handle this differently, when it is exactly the same thing.
I make my living in casinos, doing things that are completely legal and that I am comfortable with (and at times the bar for that second qualification has moved), but I try very hard not to let the casino environment change me. I know right from wrong (by my standards) and what is wrong outside the casino doors, doesn't become right, inside.
Regarding the post made by Nyne, AGAIN, the players busted at the Four Winds Casino, were not cheating, however they were, I believe playing as a team, something that all casino frown upon, GREATLY! (and they were staying in the casino hotel).
Again, when playing on the REZ. you are truly at the mercy of that Rez! They will do as they please as regards to casino operations and you will have little to nothing to do about it, they will do exactly as they please. How Many times must this be said?? Enter at your own risk!
Now that being said,, I have the pleasure of playing at some very well run and respectable Rez. casinos, that are very fair and offer good to great games, and usually rule in the players favor when there are disputes. However, again, team play and HCing are very frowned upon, team play will get you destroyed in some places, you will lose all chips and maybe your means of transportation. What is legal in Detroit or Vegas, may not be legal on the Rez., and that is just the way it will be. However I know of no Non-Rez. casino that offers some of the great table games or machines that many Rez. casinos offer.
O
I think that we should separate the two terms advantage play and advantage player.
It would seem difficult to argue with the statement that an advantage play is any play where there is an advantage. Although, it could be argued that any play which involves the real possibility of conviction has a built-in disadvantage, and can therefore be excluded from the realm of advantage play. Conviction of a crime is really high variance as well as pulling down EV rather drastically.
Assuming that we define advantage play. Does that necessarily define advantage player? That is, are you an advantage player because you use a play from the list of advantage plays? I don’t think this is necessarily so. I think we can define it any way we wish – at least for the purposes of this site.
"I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse
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