Originally Posted by ZeeBabar
Shoofly is a great guy, you would like him.I just wonder why you said that APing was unethical?
I am glad to see a fair number of us older guyz on the site, Maybe a SENIOR AP BASH is in order..................................?
O
Good idea, O (with non senior women).Shoofly is a great guy, you would like him.
I am glad to see a fair number of us older guyz on the site, Maybe a SENIOR AP BASH is in order..................................?
O
From a business owners perspective, be it a restaurant owner offering a buffet, a fast food place offering free drink refills or a bar owner offering free appetizers or a casino offering gambling, or a movie theater, theirs is a business that folks would want to spend their entertainment dollars. When someone comes to their movie theater with the express purpose of sitting through 4 movies after buying one ticket or someone comes to a bar with no intent to buy a drink and just make a meal of the free happy hour appetizers or goes to a casino and enjoys the ambience, the free drinks, and has no expectation of leaving any money behind, would this not be unethical?Shoofly is a great guy, you would like him.
I am glad to see a fair number of us older guyz on the site, Maybe a SENIOR AP BASH is in order..................................?
O
Can one rationalize that the bar charges too much for its liquor so it is okay to walk in, not buy any drink, make a meal of the appetizers and leave?
No. What does that have to do with anything? Are you claiming that there is zero risk to AP methods? Are APs not purchasing any chips? And how the Hell does this relate to crooks that buy one ticket and sneak into three extra movies? APs DON'T break rules.
Last edited by Norm; 10-13-2014 at 06:35 PM.
"I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse
Your examples are all over the place, but I am going to address them.
1.) the buffet and free drink refills are already figured into the business model. The business figures what the average is and then sets the price accordingly. Yes, there may be a 300+ pound customer than comes in and puts away far more food than the $9.95 price of the buffet, but there are also those that come in and eat a couple dollars worth. That's what averages are.
2.) the case of a patron paying for one movie and then seeing 4 is basically theft and that is not only unethical, but illegal. The AP playing by legal means is doing nothing illegal and I won't let you make that comparison without a challenge.
3.) I am not at all familiar with free appetizers in a bar. Why would they be available to non-paying customers? If these are available to non-paying customers it seems like a poor business decision. If they are only available to paying customers and non-paying customers consume them, then again we are back to theft. If it's a case of one or two customers consuming more than their share, well we are back to the 'average' issue and maybe the business (bar-owner) needs to re-think what his averages are.
4.) of the examples you gave the casino business model most resembles the buffet model. The casino sets the rules of the game, giving them an advantage of so much. This is an average. In the case of blackjack, they set rules giving a house edge of 1/2 percent. And that is assuming all players know and play basic strategy, which they don't, so the 'real' house edge is far greater than the 1/2 percent. But lets go with the assumption that everyone knows and plays basic strategy. Some players will lose more than the half percent. Some players will lose less than 1/2 percent. And a few players will actually win. That is the normal distribution. But the average is still the same.....1/2 percent in favor of the business or casino. As long as AP's are playing the game within the rules and not by some illegal method, they are already incorporated into the average and into this business model. Nothing illegal or unethical.
What the casino industry attempts to do is take the top portion of that normal bell curve distribution, the part most unfavorable to them and cut it off, leaving a more favorable bell curve. They do this by painting good players playing legally within the rules as villains and cheats. I can't stop them from doing so, but I'll be damned if I will allow a member of this site to do so without a fight.
Last edited by KJ; 10-13-2014 at 06:33 PM. Reason: spelling
The guy on the right was holding his hand where I couldn't help but see it. I told hi, to protect his hand because I couldn't help but see it. Another at the table said I better just not look. A few hands later I was shown his cards and got hit by the guy on my left while I was looking right. I guess they figure if you are trying to gain info you are cheating them in another way. They were tough guys but I could have taken anyone one on one. But I felt like I had it coming. And I doubt I would have been fighting everyone not just one. It would have been a very very foolish decision to defend myself. I just said I guess I had that coming and asked someone to switch seats with me so I didn't have the chance it would happen again. Everyone laughed and the game continued with me across the table.
I got out of there with my money and my profits and my health and my life. I played that hand about as good as I could have judging on the outcome. There are two groups of people you better not screw with in a poker game. One is police officers and the other is shall we say wise guys. This game had crooked cops and wise guys. I played the situation just right IMHO. If I did the wrong thing at that point it could have been the last thing I did. I just smiled through all the blood (there was a lot of blood) after being hit and said I guess I had that coming and moved my seat. If I had acted weak and wimpy it might have gone differently. It was a dicey situation that required just the right blend of bravado and submission. I don't feel pain or lose control of myself so it wasn't hard to take my lumps like a man.
Agree with Norm. Many real high stakes private games have their own security so you don't just have to worry about the other players at the table. The security isn't there to assure your protection.
How is it unethical. Everyone goes there hoping to win. Everyone will take every legal advantage offered them. It is EXPECTED of casino patrons. The idea that doing just tat is unethical seems ridiculous to me. If all the patrons did was see people lose casino would be out of business quick. APs are what keeps the casinos in business. Perhaps the casinos that are going down the tubes are just too vigilant against winning players. They become well known as the unlucky casinos that nobody wants to visit. As long as the AP isn't too greedy it is in the casinos best interest to let him/her play. It is free advertising that everyone has a chance to win. Most of the successful casinos get this but some just do everything they can to slit their own throat.
So you just admit you are an unethical person.
You usually find this in areas where reduced happy hour drinks are illegal. They offer free appetizers to accomplish the same thing as reduced drink prices do. The profits on the drinks are off the charts. Food profits are very small to begin with. The offerings will be cheap food usually chosen because they will make you want to drink more. Spicy and salty offerings are the norm. Scrawny chicken wins and salty snacks. Tacos made with cheap or leftover meat. Recycled food not allowed to be sold for profit anymore.
This is a great point. The casino expectation is 1/2 a percent of all the wagers made. Some players will play above that by a percent or so and many many players will play well below that in the long run. In the short run each player's results are anywhere depending on luck. As long as the casino hits the average it should expect given the house edge it advertises everything is in balance. If the casinos tries to mess with the game or patrons to have a higher house edge it is the one acting in an unethical and possibly illegal manner.
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