Definition of AP

[Three]

You are out in town when an elderly lady trying to put away her money drops a $10 bill vs in a casino, you see an elderly confused player leave $10 credits on a machine.

The latter is actually illegal in most jurisdictions and the former is illegal in all jurisdictions. This is not an ethical issue but a legal issue. It is illegal to take property belonging to another. It is called stealing. Just because the person may not realize you stole from them doesn't make it legal. You want that "found" property to be legally yours you take it to the police station and turn it in. If nobody claims it within a set time limit it is now legally your property. The jurisdictions I am familiar with that period is a month.

[Nyne]

Regarding the post made by Nyne, AGAIN, the players busted at the Four Winds Casino, were not cheating, however they were, I believe playing as a team, something that all casino frown upon, GREATLY! (and they were staying in the casino hotel).

I hope I was clear in my post that I don't consider these players cheats at all. Just pointing out that we can make plays that we all believe are legal and still get convicted in some jurisdictions, particularly tribal joints.

Again, when playing on the REZ. you are truly at the mercy of that Rez! They will do as they please as regards to casino operations and you will have little to nothing to do about it, they will do exactly as they please. How Many times must this be said?? Enter at your own risk!

Absolutely, but sometimes the reward justifies the risk. Much more money has been made by APs playing tribal casinos than spent fighting court battles as a result. Full time players will continue playing wherever the best games are, and take their chances on the tribes coming up with a bogus reason to prosecute. I don't think that makes them cheaters. That said, I have no intentions of trying to holecard at Four Winds...

[Gronbog]

Assuming that we define advantage play. Does that necessarily define advantage player? That is, are you an advantage player because you use a play from the list of advantage plays? I don’t think this is necessarily so. I think we can define it any way we wish – at least for the purposes of this site.

It's tempting to refine this to a definition of an advantage player as one who only makes plays from the list of advantage plays, although this may be too strict a definition, given that an advantage player may make individual decisions at a disadvantage as part of an overall strategy for gaining and maintaining an advantage.

Perhaps more accurately, an advantage player for whom every individual play and decision is part of an overall strategy for gaining an advantage. This would separate them from gamblers who sometimes make an advantage play and from players who know and stick to some advantage plays but also just gamble sometimes.

[Norm]

Here is the definition in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advantage_gambling

[muffdiver]

Here is the definition in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advantage_gambling

Are we allowed to disagree with Wikipedia? I think an advantage IS an advantage whether it's legal or not. A car is a car whether it's black or white.

[Norm]

You can even edit WP. But, I like the word legal in the article. (It's been there since it originated in 2007 without argument). I'm quite tired of the casinos and careless reporters that suggest advantage play is illegal (www.iscardcountingillegal.com) and am happy to see the opposite in Wikipedia. Why help casinos in their efforts to smear APs?

[muffdiver]

Norm,
I fully concur with your sentiment. It bothers the hell out of me that many (including friends) seem to think that I'm doing something on the "shady side" when I am simply counting. That's why I was hoping for the Ben Affleck thing to be fully exposed thinking that it would help our position in the eyes of the unknowing.

[Three]

It always amazes me when a ploppy comments on the number of low cards, or aces that come out and they don't change anything they do. My favorite is have you ever seen so many face cards come out in so few rounds and then they take insurance with a crappy hand because the trend is face rich. It makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.

[Norm]

Worse, single deck and all four aces have come out. I feel like yelling "what's the name of the game".

[Blitzkrieg]

I am beginning to think that casinos are moving away from the thinking of CCing and STing as being cheating, and are developing a grudging respect for these SKILLZ, and often exhibit that when you are backed off.
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I'll remember that the next time the dealer stiffs the players by giving them lousy penetration.

[Blitzkrieg]

In my opinion, no one should play seriously for significant stakes unless you are prepared to be arrested and to have to defend yourself in court, because regardless of how hard we try to stay on the right side of the law, you never know what prosecutor is going to be offended that you tried to take advantage of a business in his district.

You've got to be joking right? You make it sound as if the player who is playing BIG because they want to is doing something wrong just because they may have the resources. There is no reason to have a guilty conscience when nothing illegal has been done. No "Minority Reports" Tom Cruise.

[Dieter]

I am beginning to think that casinos are moving away from the thinking of CCing and STing as being cheating, and are developing a grudging respect for these SKILLZ, and often exhibit that when you are backed off.

The casinos make their money from civilians. Civilians are there for entertainment*. Watching us win is very entertaining to them. It gives them a sense of hope, like they might be able to do what we do, if they just caught our kind of lucky streak some time.

Being mean while kicking out the winners isn't good publicity, anyway.

*They probably think they're there to make money, but most, uhh, don't.

[Blitzkrieg]

What is an advantage player/advantage play?

Perhaps we need to define AP. Aspects like legality and ethicality have been mentioned. Must an AP method be legal and/or ethical? Before posting a poll, what other aspects might we consider in the definition?

An AP is someone who walks into the poker room at 3:00 am in the morning after a night of playing BJ to take advantage of tired poker players, beats them and wins a nice amount of cash from the other players. In addition with making your casino buddy who came with you walk 1/3 of a mile or further, back to the hotel room at a different casino at 5 am because he cannot drag you off the poker table after telling him so beforehand. Then standing up after finishing the session and telling your opponents that you just crushed at the table that the objective was to take their money and leave a winner with a smile on your face.