Planning my first scout outing

[Night_Rider]

Hello to all:

Perhaps it is too soon for me to be out scouting, since I have only recently started studing AP, but I wanted to nail down the rules for the establishment I will be starting in so that I can taylor my studies for those rules. Also, I wanted to get a look at what I will be up against. If I do play any BJ, while there, it will only be one or two hands just for the novelty. I can wait until I have a better handle on AP before any serious action.

When it comes to Casinos I have led a very sheltered life. I have only been in one Casino three or four times in my entire life so I am looking for advice, hints, and tips.

I am in the Deep South and the location I want to scout is a 'Vegas Style Casino Boat' that runs on the Salt Water. One of the first questions I have is how specific I should get about the name and location of the operation and whether it is OK to specify the name and location on this Fourm?

Second, I am wondering how inquisitive I can get with them? I have been trying to find out the rules for their BJ games, so that I can be sure that I am studying the correct BS etc., but can not seem to come up with them. The rules are not published on their web page and the lady at the office at the dock does not know. She gave me a number for the 'corporate' office but so far I only get a recording. So it is looking like I will have to go out on the boat to ascertain the rules. If I go out on the boat and start asking a lot of questions about rules, hanging around the tables watching, and maybe trying to back count for practice.... am I going to ID myself as a possible / future AP player?

Any advice on how to scout a casino would be greatly appreciated. How to act, what to ask, what NOT to ask, etc., etc., etc. If anyone would like more information about the boat and its location I can get that for you. Perhaps someone here is already familiar with this one. I can tell you that this casino boat and its location is not listed in the CV software (I can provide that info, Norm, if you would like to update CV).

Thanks in advance....

Night_Rider

[Intermediate]

It's actually a little easier than you might think. Some of the BJ rules are typically printed on the table felt, e.g., h17 vs. s17, BJ pays 3:2 or 6:5, insurance pays 2:1, and some, like Double on any two cards, or double on 10,11 only, may be listed on a card or display next to the shoe or the discard tray. It's not unusual for a player to ask about rules while at the table. It's no big deal to just walk up to an empty table and ask the dealer. I wouldn't worry about looking like an AP just because you are asking about rules.

Different tables within the same store will have different Min-Max limits and those are displayed on the card or display stand at the table. Rules will vary among the tables so keep an eye out for that. For penetration, watch the shuffling procedures and make a note of where the cut card is placed. Penetration can also vary from table to table.

Don't don't be afraid to play a few hands if you know Basic Strategy. It's important to get a feel for the speed and rhythm of the game. Just find the lowest minimum table you can find. I'd stay way from $25 minimum tables.

[seriousplayer]

Hello to all:

Perhaps it is too soon for me to be out scouting, since I have only recently started studing AP, but I wanted to nail down the rules for the establishment I will be starting in so that I can taylor my studies for those rules. Also, I wanted to get a look at what I will be up against. If I do play any BJ, while there, it will only be one or two hands just for the novelty. I can wait until I have a better handle on AP before any serious action.

When it comes to Casinos I have led a very sheltered life. I have only been in one Casino three or four times in my entire life so I am looking for advice, hints, and tips.

I am in the Deep South and the location I want to scout is a 'Vegas Style Casino Boat' that runs on the Salt Water. One of the first questions I have is how specific I should get about the name and location of the operation and whether it is OK to specify the name and location on this Fourm?

Second, I am wondering how inquisitive I can get with them? I have been trying to find out the rules for their BJ games, so that I can be sure that I am studying the correct BS etc., but can not seem to come up with them. The rules are not published on their web page and the lady at the office at the dock does not know. She gave me a number for the 'corporate' office but so far I only get a recording. So it is looking like I will have to go out on the boat to ascertain the rules. If I go out on the boat and start asking a lot of questions about rules, hanging around the tables watching, and maybe trying to back count for practice.... am I going to ID myself as a possible / future AP player?

Any advice on how to scout a casino would be greatly appreciated. How to act, what to ask, what NOT to ask, etc., etc., etc. If anyone would like more information about the boat and its location I can get that for you. Perhaps someone here is already familiar with this one. I can tell you that this casino boat and its location is not listed in the CV software (I can provide that info, Norm, if you would like to update CV).

Thanks in advance....

Night_Rider

One thing to keep in mind when table scouting is dealing with the ploppies sometime if you choose to backcount the tables. The ploppies usually have an attitude when they are losing and blame it on you when you are standing behind the tables. The casino might say you are interrupting their business. So don't be too obvious but it is hard to see the cards dealt from standing far away.

It will be great if you can go farther from the players where you can see the cards. Other experts here might have a better advice for you.

[Exoter175]

My advice would be to just go play a couple of the tables and talk to the dealers about the rules. You'll have all the information within minutes.

Play a few shoes and keep an eye on Pen, and watch a few of the other dealers while you are there too.

[DM21]

On BJ21 they have CBJN (Current Blackjack News), it is a monthly newsletter that posts conditions of Blackjack Games around the country. You can buy just one copy or pay for a subscription. I will usually get an updated copy a couple of times a year. It is a good tool to start with but you also have to take it with a grain of salt. Generally the number of tables and rules are correct but I think some reporters "protect" local games with good pen. This will give you a good idea of what to look for before even entering a casino. Just because the game looks terrible on paper doesn't mean don't check it out. It probably will be but I have been pleasantly surprised quite a few times.

Some of the things you should look for outside of the rules and pen is how the pit reacts to larger action and bet spreads. If your top bet is $250 and the highest you see is $100 all eyes will probably be on you. Dealer speed and how crowded the tables are is important as well. Count the number of betting spots on the table. This will give you an idea of how many hands per hour you can get in a different times of the day.

You can see how pit reacts to unrated players. I have been in some places where unrated players are constantly monitored and passed off during PB breaks. It is a good idea to see if they have any promotions going on while you are there as well. Ask the players club if they have promos if you sign up. There are many things in scouting that are above and beyond rules and pen. There are many other things too look for when casing a joint but those are some things to think about. Test the waters to see what will fly and what makes them uncomfortable. Good luck, keep your eyes open, be observant, and take notes.

DM

[Nikky_Flash]

Good cards to you Night_Rider ,
Don't do what I did my first time counting and go to the big "Cashier" sign , wait in line and say , "I would like to change this 100$ bill for some 5 dollar and 10 dollar chips please"
go figure -Something made me think , "Cashier" dealt with all the cash - I guess they do that at the tables , "Who knew?"
Anyways , make SURE you have an advantage , and not just by what a book says , I would recommend figuring out all your advantage TC/math beforehand, with pen and paper , calculator, and good advice from people you trust.
remember that the TC number is NOT your "percent advantage" , the experts tend to say 1 TC point is worth about .5 %
So if you have a game with a house edge of -.67 ... and you have a TC of 1 ,
you do NOT have an advantage even though you are looking at a "true count " of 1
you have a DISADVANTAGE of approximately -.33 , so you would need to have a few more low cards go by before you can justify raising your bet level.
As far as finding out the intricate rules :
Sometimes it's on their website ... things like re-split aces and , things like that .
IF it's not online -
I just ask when I sit down, "I can double anything?" , they say "yeah" . , then I say , "Can I surrender ?" they say "No" , But now I know that in my area I know what games I can do what now ...
also , when you get two aces and split , they might or might not say , "split aces get one card" ... if you want another one , just say "hit" and do the hand signal ... the worst they can say is "you can't sir" ,
after a couple of conversations and playing games like this , I realized most games in my price range are identical in my area . I figured there would be a competition to attract players , but they must not care. they all take a pretty big edge.
After a few hands , you might wanna do some quick math in the bathroom stall , maybe hit up Norm's edge calculator from your smart-phone ,
after you figure out what you can and cannot do . Then sit down again and tear it up ... (the table I mean, not the bathroom , unless you really have to go)
of course Don't play when BlackJack pays 6:5 ,
and I wouldn't play a CSM machine - because it negates counting - unless I knew for sure the rules game me an automatic advantage right off the top , Tthree showed me that that can happen from time to time if the rules are favorable.
first time or two I "counted" I lost count a few times , and I was paranoid... don't be too hard on yourself if it happens , just try your best and have fun !
let us know how it goes / post it here

[Exoter175]

On BJ21 they have CBJN (Current Blackjack News), it is a monthly newsletter that posts conditions of Blackjack Games around the country. You can buy just one copy or pay for a subscription. I will usually get an updated copy a couple of times a year. It is a good tool to start with but you also have to take it with a grain of salt. Generally the number of tables and rules are correct but I think some reporters "protect" local games with good pen. This will give you a good idea of what to look for before even entering a casino. Just because the game looks terrible on paper doesn't mean don't check it out. It probably will be but I have been pleasantly surprised quite a few times.

Some of the things you should look for outside of the rules and pen is how the pit reacts to larger action and bet spreads. If your top bet is $250 and the highest you see is $100 all eyes will probably be on you. Dealer speed and how crowded the tables are is important as well. Count the number of betting spots on the table. This will give you an idea of how many hands per hour you can get in a different times of the day.

You can see how pit reacts to unrated players. I have been in some places where unrated players are constantly monitored and passed off during PB breaks. It is a good idea to see if they have any promotions going on while you are there as well. Ask the players club if they have promos if you sign up. There are many things in scouting that are above and beyond rules and pen. There are many other things too look for when casing a joint but those are some things to think about. Test the waters to see what will fly and what makes them uncomfortable. Good luck, keep your eyes open, be observant, and take notes.

DM

This is some really good information here, I cannot stress every point of this post enough. Some guys out there will go to every effort to keep their stores a secret from other counters, and some will even go as far as to get a counter some extra heat because they feel their golden goose is threatened.

It is imperative that you spend a good deal of time at your local stores to get some honest and accurate information regarding rules, penetration, and heat levels.

Luckily for me I play in a place with "average" rules, but with little to no heat. You could literally black chip a 10 dollar table here and get ZERO heat unless you are slaughtering them for 5 figures. The only time I've ever seen moderate attention paid to a player is when a guy was playing table max on three hands at a 5 dollar table (idiot) and they had to call in for more chips to support his play.

Its important that you find places like these as you will be able to fly under the radar for quite some time while you hone your skills and continue to gather information on all games.

[FalseCount]

Interesting point about the protection of games from CBJN. I have experience to support this observation as well.

When scouting, just make sure not to ask "How many cards do you cut off?"

[Night_Rider]

Thanks everyone for the replies to my OP.

Yes, Exoter175 lots of good info here. I will come back to this post again just before I go out and read over it a few more times to make sure I have it. As I said in my original post I won't be playing much BJ on my first time out. I don't feel as though I am ready yet and I need to make sure I have trained for the right set of rules. I'm not totally convinced that the boat, I will be going on, is a good example of a casino but I think it will be good for me since I am just getting started. According to others I have talked to, that have been out on the boat, there is only one or maybe two BJ tables and it sounds like the PB is over the whole boat - not just the BJ tables. But for me it will be a good start. I hope that the rules are favorable. The boat docks are only about 5 miles from my house so if the rules ARE favorable its quite possible that I will be taking many boat rides. From what I have been told this is a family owned casino boat so it is possible that the rules will be good. I shall certainly find out. Once I have been out on the boat I will come back and post my findings here.

In a few months, after I have been out on the boat a few times, I will be planning a trip to a Hard Rock Casino to start scoping it out. I am fortunate in that I only live about 30 miles from a Hard Rock Casino so I won't have a lot of trip expense like if I was going to Vegas or something. Anyway, that is future plans and I will probably have a few more questions before I go.

Thanks again to everyone for the great replies.... I will continue checking back for additional replies so if anyone has more info I will be watching for it.

Night_Rider

[Nikky_Flash]

Thanks everyone for the replies to my OP.

Yes, Exoter175 lots of good info here. I will come back to this post again just before I go out and read over it a few more times to make sure I have it. As I said in my original post I won't be playing much BJ on my first time out. I don't feel as though I am ready yet and I need to make sure I have trained for the right set of rules. I'm not totally convinced that the boat, I will be going on, is a good example of a casino but I think it will be good for me since I am just getting started. According to others I have talked to, that have been out on the boat, there is only one or maybe two BJ tables and it sounds like the PB is over the whole boat - not just the BJ tables. But for me it will be a good start. I hope that the rules are favorable. The boat docks are only about 5 miles from my house so if the rules ARE favorable its quite possible that I will be taking many boat rides. From what I have been told this is a family owned casino boat so it is possible that the rules will be good. I shall certainly find out. Once I have been out on the boat I will come back and post my findings here.

In a few months, after I have been out on the boat a few times, I will be planning a trip to a Hard Rock Casino to start scoping it out. I am fortunate in that I only live about 30 miles from a Hard Rock Casino so I won't have a lot of trip expense like if I was going to Vegas or something. Anyway, that is future plans and I will probably have a few more questions before I go.

Thanks again to everyone for the great replies.... I will continue checking back for additional replies so if anyone has more info I will be watching for it.

Night_Rider

Hey Night_Rider ,
sometimes the PB are just standing there at the BJ tables because there's nothing else for them to do and they wanna chit-chat with the dealers / customers etc ... doesn't mean they are trying to "catch " you doing something ... you can still play there if you like the place , good rules .. etc...
don't be afraid to ask about a few rules when you sit down , noone will think that's too odd or anything... but yeah, I agree with the other guy who said don't ask how many cards are cut off ... but the rules you have every right just to ask a few questions , sometimes they have brochures of each game out in the hallways / lobbies , or whatever ...
good cards ,
Nikky

[njrich]

Night_Rider

Some questions will not be answered on the public part of this forum by most members.
My advice is pay the small subscription fee so you can send and receive PM"s or private messages.

You'll find it was well worth the investment.

[hitA7]

[QUOTE=The ploppies usually have an attitude when they are losing and blame it on you when you are standing behind the tables. [/QUOTE]

Truly a classic ploppy move. I had a guy once yell at me cus he said I was "messing up his flow" while back counting from a good 7 ft away from the table ????

[Exoter175]

Thanks everyone for the replies to my OP.

Yes, Exoter175 lots of good info here. I will come back to this post again just before I go out and read over it a few more times to make sure I have it. As I said in my original post I won't be playing much BJ on my first time out. I don't feel as though I am ready yet and I need to make sure I have trained for the right set of rules. I'm not totally convinced that the boat, I will be going on, is a good example of a casino but I think it will be good for me since I am just getting started. According to others I have talked to, that have been out on the boat, there is only one or maybe two BJ tables and it sounds like the PB is over the whole boat - not just the BJ tables. But for me it will be a good start. I hope that the rules are favorable. The boat docks are only about 5 miles from my house so if the rules ARE favorable its quite possible that I will be taking many boat rides. From what I have been told this is a family owned casino boat so it is possible that the rules will be good. I shall certainly find out. Once I have been out on the boat I will come back and post my findings here.

In a few months, after I have been out on the boat a few times, I will be planning a trip to a Hard Rock Casino to start scoping it out. I am fortunate in that I only live about 30 miles from a Hard Rock Casino so I won't have a lot of trip expense like if I was going to Vegas or something. Anyway, that is future plans and I will probably have a few more questions before I go.

Thanks again to everyone for the great replies.... I will continue checking back for additional replies so if anyone has more info I will be watching for it.

Night_Rider

This place sounds a little sketchy, and sounds like there's so few tables to play with, but as they say "You miss every shot you don't take", and could potentially have very favorable rules due to the limited table opportunities and what sounds like "smallness" in terms of corporate oversight. Could end up being very tempting, or it could end up being nothing more than a slaughterhouse for ploppies who don't know any better.

That being said, if its your first time there, be a ploppy. Obviously you aren't, but why not act the part? If you go during a slow hour and there's not much action on the tables, sit there and watch, and when attention gets drawn to you and the dealer or floor person asks if you want to play (and they will), say something along the lines of, "I don't really know how to play this game, I'm just kind of trying to figure out how to play it and don't want to mess anyone up". And when they say, "Oh that's quite alright, we can help you", respond with, "Oh could you?". Sit down (hopefully the most minimal denomination of tables with a very small buy in), and play. On your very first hand, ask questions like. "What should I do here", and he will go on to explain the game and so forth, and often enough if you have a hand that you could split, double down on, or get a black jack on, they will explain the rules to you, allowing you to counter-question him.

Example, lets say you get 8, 8 vs 7. You'll ask him, "What should I do here"? He will tell you to split them. You ask, "Oh, what is that?". He will inform you that you can match your bet, do the finger motion, and make two hands out of that. Your VERY next question needs to be. "Oh really? Well what happens if another 8 comes out? Do I split that one too?". And his answer will immediately draw back to their rules on number of Resplits, and you can steer that question towards the issue of splitting aces as well. After you get those answers, and you hopefully receive a 2 or 3, you ask him "What do I do here?", and he tells you about doubling. Your immediate follow up needs to be about what you can double on, if he didn't already tell you.

Most all of this will be posted on a little placard placed on the table near the dropbox to the dealers' right, but in case it isn't there, use the dialogue above for any and all answers you have questions to. Works like an absolute charm every single time.

Hey Night_Rider ,
sometimes the PB are just standing there at the BJ tables because there's nothing else for them to do and they wanna chit-chat with the dealers / customers etc ... doesn't mean they are trying to "catch " you doing something ... you can still play there if you like the place , good rules .. etc...
don't be afraid to ask about a few rules when you sit down , noone will think that's too odd or anything... but yeah, I agree with the other guy who said don't ask how many cards are cut off ... but the rules you have every right just to ask a few questions , sometimes they have brochures of each game out in the hallways / lobbies , or whatever ...
good cards ,
Nikky

That's a really good point about the PB's. They are there first and foremost to manage the employees and games in that pit, not there solely to catch cheaters, in fact, that really is barely on the top 5 list of things they prioritize for their jobs, and more importantly, they are people too. They are working their shift just like anybody else, hoping it flies by without issue, and they can collect some easily made greenbacks without having to stress, so they can pay the way for their lives.

It is for this reason alone that I strike up conversations with every PB I see at my regular joints and establish a kind of working-friendship with them, assuming its a place I find favorable enough to frequent. As long as I don't tear them up too bad, I'll end up near the bottom of the list in their minds as being a threat, and they will largely be more accommodating and friendly to you. In some cases a kind of reverse-stockholm syndrome applies, and they end up wishing you nothing but the best from the bottom of your heart and hope that you win every single time you step through the door.

As an example, I've been playing BJ for a few years now at a local place of mine, I'm on a first name basis with about 75% of the pit critters, security, Slot Attendants, Dealers, and so forth. I know the GM of the casino, I play rated, have the Top Card at the joint, eat for free, sleep for free, drink for free, and I have a personal casino host. These guys know me, they know my game from playing near perfect basic strategy prior to my introduction to counting, and they know I'm liable to come in every single day, take them for $100, and walk out. To the point where its now a running joke with one of the floor personnel specifically, where he'll ask me when I get up if I got my daily quota or not, and we'll laugh and talk about each others families. Two months into card counting, not a single thing has changed. I'm taking quite a bit more money from the tables with much higher consistency, and nobody bats an eye.