Can someone SIM these rules?

[dharmaprija]

The store near me has this setup and I haven't been able to find an online SIM or even CVCX that can find the EXACT house advantage for the rules. They are as follows and I hope someone can figure out how to get me a percentage to use: 6 deck, stand on 17, split up to 4, double any, BUT a .50 ANTE every hand. I can't find a SIM that will allow one to factor in the crazy Tribal ante nonsense. I know THREE or other geniuses on the site can get me the numbers so I am desperately asking for an EXACT % advantage of the house. If i were as gifted as some of our crew I would do it myself but unfortunately I am not that gifted.

Thanks for your input.

[Three]

HE will be dependent on bet size since ante is not a percentage of your bet. Best just not to play ante games.

[dharmaprija]

He will be dependent on bet size since ante is not a percentage of your bet. Best just not to play ante games.

I've MISSED you Tthree. Long time no see. I know you have possibly the greatest Math mind on the site and appreciate your advice always. I KNOW i'm being a nerd but I just have this OCD need to find the exact Casino advantage percent based on their rules. I just HATE them to such a degree for robbing the ploppies and making an IMPOSSIBLE or nearly impossible situation for AP's. THey get all of these suckers coming up from Dallas and they rob these poor people and I just want to walk into the place and whisper into the ear of a few people I know personally the EXACT % they are guaranteed to lose. I have a friend that loses at least $600 a month on BJ and I think if i could give him the odds he would quit. He mocks the slots and craps for the bad numbers but somehow he thinks he can beat them at BJ. With the rules he would need probably $100k and a monster spread. I KNOW its a sh*t game but I would like to know exactly HOW shi**y.

[dharmaprija]

To be as clear as I can from the PB on the game near me, the rules are S17, 6 deck, split ANY up to 4 and double after split except A's which are one card after split. Don't forget the .50 per hand ante. I REALLY would like the GEEK house percent advantage on this game. I KNOW there has to be a person able to figure out the advantage. I am eager to know...and i will say willingly, "CHECK OUT THE BIG BRAIN ON BRAD"! Thanks in advance team.

[Freightman]

U

The store near me has this setup and I haven't been able to find an online SIM or even CVCX that can find the EXACT house advantage for the rules. They are as follows and I hope someone can figure out how to get me a percentage to use: 6 deck, stand on 17, split up to 4, double any, BUT a .50 ANTE every hand. I can't find a SIM that will allow one to factor in the crazy Tribal ante nonsense. I know THREE or other geniuses on the site can get me the numbers so I am desperately asking for an EXACT % advantage of the house. If i were as gifted as some of our crew I would do it myself but unfortunately I am not that gifted.

Thanks for your input.

Figure about 100 hph for the sake of argument - that .50 ante will cost you $50 per hour. You could, I suppose, multiply hours played per month x $50, and call it a living expense, which you can sim, but will play havoc with your ror.

Regardless, you have not stated deck pen, or stakes that you are playing. You might be playing monster stakes with great pen, but not likely. Best advice - not worth the effort to play.

[RS]

Just sim the game like you normally would (in CVCX), then subtract $50 from your hourly EV, assuming 100 hands per hour. Of course, everything else changes (ROR, N0, SD [-50 on both sides I believe], etc.).

I suppose if you wanted to ball-park'ish your ROR, you could figure out what your N0 is. Then from there figure out how many $0.50's you're losing over that period of time. Then subtract that amount from your BR [while locking in bet ramp], to see what your new "ROR" would be, even though it wouldn't be exactly accurate. But doing that should give you a better understanding of how truly awful giving up a $0.50 ante every hand is.

[DSchles]

Boy, an awful lot of attempts at answers, but no one answered the question you asked. Unfortunate. The house edge without the ante is 0.33%. You can't state in percent what it is with the ante, because 50 cents per hand represents a different percentage depending on how much you are betting per hand. So, suppose you flat bet $10 per hand. As a percentage, the ante represents 5% of your bet, which is catastrophic. So, the house edge would be 5.33% against the $10 BS bettor.

Now, suppose you bet $100 per hand. The ante is now "only" 0.5% of your per-hand wager, and the total house edge is 0.83% -- a whole lot more palatable.

It seems to me that your question didn't have anything to do with card counting, ROR, or the like, but rather was aimed at pointing out to tourists how horrible the rules are. So, now you know. :-)

Don

[Tarzan]

Oklahoma

[MJGolf]

Oklahoma

Only PARTS of Oklahoma............but since he mentioned near Texas, I'm going to opine either WinStar (on border) or Choctaw Casino (in Durant).

But you should check out Wizard's site, too, if you need more info. Don gave the short version. Since the ante is a "flat" fee but your bets vary, the percentage it "adds" to the HE also varies. See:

http://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wiza...jack/variants/

Most to all of our casinos here in OK require a blackjack player to ante $0.50 every hand. Obviously, this gives the house a huge (probably insurmountable) edge. The rules they play by are generally hit on 16, stand on soft 17, blackjack pays 3-2, no surrender, double after split. What effect does this have on house edge and is the only way to reduce that edge to increase your bet? I was estimating 10% (because you’re really betting $5.50 to only win $5). Is the math really that simple?

Jeremy King from Oklahoma City

If you are wagering $5, not including the 50-cent fee, that increases the house edge by 9.09%! The general formula for the increase is c/(b+c), where b=bet, and c=commission. Assuming 60 hands an hour, the commission will cost you $30 an hour (ouch!).

For the benefit of other readers, the Oklahoma casinos are much like those in the Los Angeles area, where players take turns banking. If you can afford the risk of paying off all other wagers at the table, then by all means, do so. When it isn’t your turn to bank, don’t bet.

and:

http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambl...ante-vs-slots/

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Between me and some A.P. friends "Oklahoma" is a durable

standby punchline for any joke without a ready punchline.

[Three]

Boy, an awful lot of attempts at answers, but no one answered the question you asked. Unfortunate. The house edge without the ante is 0.33%. You can't state in percent what it is with the ante, because 50 cents per hand represents a different percentage depending on how much you are betting per hand. So, suppose you flat bet $10 per hand. As a percentage, the ante represents 5% of your bet, which is catastrophic. So, the house edge would be 5.33% against the $10 BS bettor.

Now, suppose you bet $100 per hand. The ante is now "only" 0.5% of your per-hand wager, and the total house edge is 0.83% -- a whole lot more palatable.

It seems to me that your question didn't have anything to do with card counting, ROR, or the like, but rather was aimed at pointing out to tourists how horrible the rules are. So, now you know. :-)

Don

I wasn't and still am not certain the problem could give an accurate answer this way. Your wager is $10.50 to win $9.50, $14.50 on a blackjack, lose $0.50 on a push etc.

Let us look at a situation you bet $10, win even money 45% of the time, lose even money 47% of the time, and push 8%. Obviously the HE is 2%. You lose 2 $10 bets for every $1000 wagered (if you include ties). Now if there were a $0.50 ante. You wager $1050 over the 100 hand cycle and lose $70 through the cycle. That makes the edge 70/1050 = 6.667% not 5% plus the original 2%. This example from a theoretical game seems to indicate Don's method is not accurate.

[DSchles]

"I wasn't and still am not certain the problem could give an accurate answer this way."

It's your right not to be certain, but that doesn't mean my answer was wrong! :-)

"Your wager is $10.50 to win $9.50, $14.50 on a blackjack, lose $0.50 on a push etc."

You aren't "wagering" the ante; you can't win that part. It isn't a bet. You're giving it away as a tax. It's a fee for the privilege of playing. If you announce that you're going to play 100 hands at $10 each, you can consider the $50 loss as a certainty (it has no variance). So, to me, your total wager is $1,000. Period. And you have a certain loss of $50 before you begin to play. Now, on top of that, you lose another 2% (your 0.2% below is wrong) playing the game. So, you've lost a total of $70 and wagered $1,000.

"Let us look at a situation you bet $10, win even money 45% of the time, lose even money 47% of the time, and push 8%. Obviously the HE is 0.2%."

Obviously, the house edge isn't 0.2%; it's 2%!

"You lose 2 $10 bets for every $1000 wagered (if you include ties).

That's $20 per $1,000, or 2%.

"Now if there were a $0.50 ante. You wager $1050 over the 100 hand cycle and lose $70 through the cycle."

Define "wager." is it money placed in the circle that is at risk? Oh.

That makes the edge 70/1050 = 6.667% not 5% plus the original 0.2%."

You meant to write "not 5% plus the original 2%," but I understand.

"This example from a theoretical game seems to indicate Don's method is not accurate."

Works for me! :-)

Don

[Three]

Well at least I illustrated my issue with the whole thing. LOL

Well when I put out a certain amount of money at risk that is my wager and how much I end up above that amount is my win. To me a $10 bet coupled with a $0.5 ante is a $10.50 wager. It is like the vig in sports betting or to buy the 4 or 10 at craps. Buying the 4 or 10 in craps is closest to an ante. You pay a $20 increment stepped 5% of your wager on a fair odds bet. Adding 0% plus 5% would yield a HE of 5% yet the HE on a $20 buy bet ($1 vig or ante if you like) is 4.762%:

[3/9*($39) - 6/9*($21)]/$21 = -1/21 = 4.7619%

The wizard of odds gets the same answer for buying the 4 or 10:

http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/1/

I just don't see how the ante should be considered differently than the vig on buying the 4 or 10 in craps. In both cases it is money you lose no matter what the bets outcome (I know some places you only pay the vig on a win but that is beside the point of how edge should be calculated). Either way the 2 methods of calculating edge aren't that far apart in their results. A quarter of a percent point shaved off the 5% for the craps wager and a third of a percent point shaved off the 5% in my illustrative hypothetical bet.