Pai Gow Poker-Can It Be Beaten?

[Thirdbaseman]

I read in the book Everything Casino Poker that the player can get an edge at Pai Gow Poker. The author claims that the key is to bank the game
on every other hand against the other players, and to bank for an amount at least 13 times more than the player/banker bets against the dealer.
Does anyone have any experience or info re whether it is practical to beat this game?
I have never played and wonder whether it is worthwhile to learn it.
I did not see anything in Exhibit CAA about this, and Wizard of Odds talks about strategy but not about practicality of winning.

[RobinHood21]

If you are allowed to bank more often then every other hand (ie. dealer, then you, and back to dealer again). If you are allowed more banks then normal you can expect roughly a 0.02%-0.20% HE depending on various dealer house ways.

http://apheat.net/2013/10/21/conspic...pai-gow-poker/

Hole-carding a dragon side bet is beatable but procedures are often in place to prevent this from happening.

http://apheat.net/2013/11/15/hole-ca...pai-gow-poker/

In my younger days I used to play a bit of poker and at one specific card room they offered a promo for free-commission pai-gow from 2AM-6AM. Kinda like a happy hour deal. The joker was completely wild and they allowed player banking. I'm not a numbers guy, but this game seemed to me like it could be beat. So, I gave it a whirl. Four days a week for two months I played with a $100.00 flat bet, banking every chance I had. I generally played around 2 hours a day. At the end of the promotion I was ahead $2,500.00. Maybe someone can run the actual numbers for me and let me know if I was in fact playing a +EV game.

[tiny]

You can hole card the dragon side bet so long as you can bet more than your original wager.

[Norm]

I don't know any Vegas casinos that allow banking every other hand since the Barbary closed. You can in California. I'm surprised Eliot says there is no mention of beating PGP. Wong has a book, and I sold PGP software for many years.

[Dog Hand]

An excellent book that discusses and quantifies the edge a player can achieve is Powerful Pai Gow Poker: Best Play Against the Casino by Peter VanderHart. He also gives both optimum and practical strategies for playing as Player and as Banker.

The book is available from Amazon.

I have used his strategies for many years with good results.

Dog Hand

[Nikky_Flash]

That's interesting Does card counting help for any games like this? I've seen some odd games offered at a few places I go; and I know some aren't what they call "symmetrical" ; meaning EOR of a certain card value doesn't make it change one way or another in a way that makes it valuable info; just curious if theres been any work on this besides bacarat .

[Thirdbaseman]

An excellent book that discusses and quantifies the edge a player can achieve is Powerful Pai Gow Poker: Best Play Against the Casino by Peter VanderHart. He also gives both optimum and practical strategies for playing as Player and as Banker.

The book is available from Amazon.

I have used his strategies for many years with good results.

Dog Hand

Thanks Dog Hand.
Is getting an edge based on being allowed to bank?
It looks like my local casinos don't allow banking, & based on Norm's comment, are there places outside California that allow banking?

[Sonny]

Just be careful at non-tribal casinos outside of Nevada. Don't do anything to piss off the corporation(s). Barrings are still a concern, but the heat comes from another angle.

-Sonny-

[Dog Hand]

Thanks Dog Hand.
Is getting an edge based on being allowed to bank?
It looks like my local casinos don't allow banking, & based on Norm's comment, are there places outside California that allow banking?

Thirdbaseman,

Although VanderHart gives optimal play, that only serves to reduce the house edge. The only time the player can achieve +EV overall is if he is allowed to bank.

Most places I've seen allow the player to bank. One exception is Missouri: all the Pai Gow Poker games I've seen there do NOT permit player banking.

Dog Hand

[Norm]

I've seen four scenarios:

- The player is not allowed to bank.
- The player can bank once every seven hands.
- The player can bank once every n+1 hands where n is the number of players.
- The player can bank every other hand, if all other players pass. Players very often pass.

[Thirdbaseman]

Thanks Dog Hand & Norm.
Seems like the gameplan should be to find a casino that allows banking, & allows it every other hand, & then see if players are betting large enough that I can bank at least 13 times my bet.
A shop I was at last week had a minimum bet of $40, so the other players would need to be betting at least $520 in total each hand to get an advantage based on Scoblete's book.
Another issue could be if superstitious players don't want to play when another player is banking.
Seems like it might be difficult to find an advantageous situation, but I will keep my eyes open.

[VABJ]

I think you'll need an awful large bankroll to make it work if your following Scoblete's formula. I know when they we're playing it, they had to use very large bets for the min amount of winnings. I'm not sure if they they were playing it when they got booted from a famous casino.

I used to play PG myself and banking as much as possible will reduce the houses edge. You used to be able to do it(banking every other hand) in NV but I haven't played the game in years.

[RobinHood21]

Seems like the gameplan should be to find a casino that allows banking, & allows it every other hand, & then see if players are betting large enough that I can bank at least 13 times my bet.
A shop I was at last week had a minimum bet of $40, so the other players would need to be betting at least $520 in total each hand to get an advantage based on Scoblete's book.

Most casinos that allow player banking will only allow you to bank up to your previous bet plus 10%.