Surveillance Agent

[Wave Function]

I wish you guys had shown a little more patience & tolerance (and some respect) to MannyOlaer.
I hope he's not frustrated away.
I always enjoy interacting with former surveillance personnel.
My best experience was with an older female blackjack dealer in the high limit room in Venetian. She told me that when she worked in the surveillance room, they would take turns taking naps and cover each other's monitors. LOL! She said that supervisors were required to count down a deck, although slowly. She didn't know that there were multiple systems. To them, HiLo is *the* way to count. Many times I sat at a table without playing just talking to the floor supervisor (former surveillance) with "amazement" of some of the stories they told. They're not all AP stories, but when they do get to blackjack and card counting, I encourage them on for details. He said that they don't have a sophisticated inter-casino communication or data exchange systems, so they simply call to ask if so and so was in which casino and at what times, etc. By the way, they have other jobs than to identify card counters, so it's just an extra work on top of their normal routine. Naturally, I don't take their words as gospel. I just want to enter their minds and try to see the blackjack table from their perspective.
The blackjack strategy analyzer is something I would love to learn more about. Many books talk about strategy deviations to throw off the computer analyzer, but I wish I could get some detailed info. I have confirmed that I'm a subject of such analysis. The software does both betting variation and strategy analysis.
MannyOlaer worked in the room, but you guys haven't, so your arrogance (and ignorance) may have cost me and you some valuable insider's info. Of course I don't want to learn AP techniques from them. I just want to wear their glasses and see the casino through their eyes.

[Three]

MannyOlaer worked in the room, but you guys haven't, so your arrogance (and ignorance) may have cost me and you some valuable insider's info. Of course I don't want to learn AP techniques from them. I just want to wear their glasses and see the casino through their eyes.

Where he got criticism is when he talked about AP techniques in an uninformed way. If he came and started talking surveillance most wouldn't know whether what he said was right or wrong. So even if he was wrong he wouldn't have been criticized due to our ignorance.

If I went up to Peyton Manning and started telling him he throws the football wrong and doesn't know how to read a defense he would think I didn't know what I was talking about. If I met him in a different setting and tried to teach him something he knows nothing about but is interested in he would pay more attention to what I have to say. Manny needs to consider this if he wants to be taken seriously.

[KJ]

I wish you guys had shown a little more patience & tolerance (and some respect) to MannyOlaer.
I hope he's not frustrated away.
MannyOlaer worked in the room, but you guys haven't, so your arrogance (and ignorance) may have cost me and you some valuable insider's info. Of course I don't want to learn AP techniques from them. I just want to wear their glasses and see the casino through their eyes.

I share your frustration, Wave Function. At this point of my career, I feel like I am benefiting more by learning some of the ins and outs of the casino industry. I am lucky enough to know a gentleman that works in the pit of a strip location that I have meet with occasionally and get to pick his brain. I also have a second pit guy and a current surveillance employee that while I have not personally met, I communicate with fairly regularly. This allows me to ask questions and gain insight to procedures and information that I otherwise would not know. Credibility is a key issue in these relationships, because if the person is not credible in his claims, then, any info you receive is also not credible.

Now with MannyOlaer, while I appreciate the opportunity to continue this learning process there are a couple issues concerning credibility. For starters he has a website, where he is marketing his information. Now that is not to say that what he has to offer is not credible, but when someone shows up and posts just a few posts, even two with identical titles, of 'Surveillance Agents', which seem geared towards promoting his site and/or product, well it is understandable that members have a degree of intolerance, especially the members of our community that see this scenario routinely.

The second issue with MannyOlaer, is that in the few posts that he has made he has said some things that are out of whack and do in fact raise questions about his credibility. The statements that I am referring to are 1.) That wonging is stupid and doesn't work and 2.) that suspicions of card counters results in SAR reports. These are both just wrong. Now in defense of Manny, there appears to be some communication issues. Maybe he is just not expressing himself as he would like. Maybe the SAR reports he is talking about are not the financial, FinCEN reports, but rather some sort of industry in-house document pertaining to advantage players. I don't know. But on the surface his appearance and comments do raise some credibility issues. I don't think it is disrespectful or intolerant to want to clear those up. After all, with compromised credibility, everything else is just a waste of time.

[Tom]

Anybody heard from "T. Dane" lately? Whatever happened to the wealth of information from an ex-surveillance agent he was supposedly offering?
Did anybody cough up the $90 to read his book

[Blackriver]

I also don't want him chased away. I would love it if norm would arrange a surveillance chat where a few of them talk indefinitely and norm just fuels or gently steers the conversation. if nothing they say is useful, THAT would be VERY VERY useful, DUCY?

[paymypush]

Anybody heard from "T. Dane" lately? Whatever happened to the wealth of information from an ex-surveillance agent he was supposedly offering?
Did anybody cough up the $90 to read his book

It looks like he headed for the hills and I don't blame him. The thread he started on the Wizard's site is at 18 pages but they managed to drive him away after 4 days. Shameful!

[Tom]

Well I'll just say that Dane has gone about this in the worst way, triggering "scam" alarms all over the place (including the "out of stock" and eBay thing). Lots of people in that thread have good points. Getting your book on Amazon costs nothing, so what is holding him back?? That would open it up to public review and probably help him sell more books. Probably cheaper than printing the books off his home printer anyway. Yeah they take a small cut but if he's depending on the book to pay bills he's in the wrong business.

He says the book is not for people who already "know" all there is to know about surveillance. Yet he is trying to keep it private/secret among the AP community??? Am I wrong in assuming that any AP would read all the surveillance books before stepping foot in a casino?

150 page book does NOT need an index AND table of contents. This is sign of struggling to fill pages (other clues include Biblio and regulation nonsense). Unless it's an encyclopedia or something

I really think if the book wasn't $90 then people would detract their cynicism. Heck, I could bribe a surveillance agent into telling me all he knows for probably a few beers.

I've had my share of scammers and can smell one a mile away. He may not be a scammer but he has gone about marketing/explaining his book poorly. I am the most introverted person you will ever meet but I sure as hell know to cover my bases when I'm trying to get information out to my audience.

That's all I'll say about it. Don't get me wrong, I try to keep an open mind. But these guys are taking the wrong approach

But enough of Dane, I wanna hear more about Manny

[Tarzan]

I am always wondering what is going on with "the other side of the fence" and as much as I have tried to inquire into it along the way, I think I still know very little about it. Listening to what is said online, picking up little bits and pieces of the conversations between casino employees, reading a few articles and watching some various videos can tell you a few things about surveillance but not all. I've often wondered about how "closely joined at the hip" surveillance is to pit supervisory types and how they may interact with one another and what are the specific protocals on how they may work in concert together. You guys know what I am talking about... The phone rings in the pit, so is it--- Surveillance? Or is it Hal from the kitchen telling the pit that tuna sandwiches are now available in the breakroom?--- Little things like that always have you wondering.

I am willing to listen to whatever this guy has to say about surveillance, take it with a grain of salt and factor that into the rest of the jigsaw puzzle of bits of trivial information on the subject but will still probably be underinformed on the subject. For this reason, I have determined that the only way for me to get to the bottom of this... is to get to the bottom of this and start having sex with a pit supervisor or pitboss. I have one or two picked out that would do nicely and it could be a rather pleasurable venture into industrial espionage!

[Ouchez]

Tarzan,

Do not interrogate her too HARD,,but sleep deprivation will be acceptable.

Ouchez

[Norm]

Wave Function expresses a frustration I have often felt and expressed myself. Which is why I give leeway to posters that appear out of nowhere that could conceivably be helpful even though they may be spammers. And why I want casino advisors to be treated with respect. (And why I am not happy that people keep chasing off Eliot, someone that actually understands AP.) Let us look at the two examples mentioned here:

T. Dane came to push his book. That’s OK if the book is useful and he is also useful. I have seen him in the Chat Room on many occasions. That’s good. But, has he been answering questions or pushing his book? I haven’t heard of any good info parsed from these chats. I understand that he has a conflict and is worried about his position. I have spoken to him privately, and frankly don’t think a formal chat would be a good idea for either party. At least at this time. But, I encourage him to find a way to make himself more useful to the community. Some authors feel that keeping the contents of their books’ secret helps sales. Only works if it’s a best seller.

Manny came here as an obvious spammer. Still, I allowed the posts hoping for some usefulness. I looked at everything I could find about him, as well as his posts. He clearly has no understanding of advantage play. That does not mean, in any way, that he cannot contribute. But, if he persists in posting John Patrick logic, I will not stop members responding as they would to John Patrick. I strongly believe in treating people with respect. I do NOT believe in treating obvious misinformation with respect. We have to keep a balance.

Having said that, I suggest again that these members make useful posts about the things that they know -- or even experiences and observations that they themselves may not realize are useful. That may engender respect. Telling us that TC betting is an MIT trade secret, or statistics and math are stupid, or Wonging is stupid, will be met with the ridicule it deserves.

[RWM]

I think T Dane is struggling with the public life/private life issue. I think he wrote a book and suddenly realized it may be harder than he originally thought to keep his real identity secret - and what if his employers found out he has written this book. I know that Cellini and DeCarlo struggled with that issue

[Tom]

I think T Dane is struggling with the public life/private life issue. I think he wrote a book and suddenly realized it may be harder than he originally thought to keep his real identity secret - and what if his employers found out he has written this book. I know that Cellini and DeCarlo struggled with that issue

I can somewhat understand this. It is very difficult for me to retain anonymity, simply because I have a vast life. I can't even discuss what I "do" with people because I am a known individual. All my future work has to be done under pseudonyms. I've dropped clues here on these forums that I probably shouldn't have, but fortunately most of the information is masked.

If T.Dane is concerned he should probably use pseudonyms. Secondly, he should be better at covering his tracks.

Selling book via eBay or Paypal = access to his true identity because Paypal requires verified info to withdraw funds. When you pay on eBay it shows seller's address
Amazon would actually be better because of this, as long as it was sold directly by Amazon. Customer access directly to seller info would be more difficult to acquire.

WHOIS database lists his website as registered in Australia...........makes me wonder

Thought he was retired? Or am I getting confused with Manny again

[zengrifter]

User is banned, content deleted.