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Thread: SPEED: A more detailed look into rounds per hour...

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    SPEED: A more detailed look into rounds per hour...

    There are many factors that affect the true amount of hands per hour. I believe the rule of thumb in the AP community is to achieve nothing less than 100 rounds per hour yes?

    There are so many factors that affect the game speed besides the # of players. For example...

    How many decks in the game - The more decks, the less time that will be spent breaking the deck and shuffling

    What is the level of penetration - More important for 1-2 decks than 4 +

    Hand Shuffle or ASM - ASM games save a lot of the shuffle time, and as a result the level of penetration does not factor as much (for speed) on an ASM game.

    Face down, or face up -In a face down game, some players won't even really look at their hand until it is their turn to make a decision. The player's involvement with their own cards can significantly slow down the game.

    Pitch or shoe - A dealer can deal faster from a shoe compared to the mid-air pitch.

    Table Limits - I noticed that things can get really slow with others when in the high-limit area, and other player(s)on a losing streak betting large amounts but keep buying in with 20's. The dealer can spend a lot of time just sorting through cash and calling the pit to verify when she could be getting rounds out instead.

    Other misc. factors - Using irregular/erratic chip combinations, and even the AP's ability to make decisions can significantly affect game speed as well, however I believe these things would be hard to quantify as the factors mentioned above...

    Does anyone have a chart, or their own thorough analysis of a game speed given the following considerations? How about other factors I may have missed...anybody?

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    A number of good points here, but:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace-King View Post
    The more decks, the less time that will be spent breaking the deck and shuffling.
    Bull! A competent dealer (not enough of those left any more, admittedly) can shuffle one deck FAST. With all the complicated procedures casinos put in place, and all of the heavy stacks of cards to move around, shuffling six decks typically takes MUCH more than six times as long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace-King View Post
    Hand Shuffle or ASM - ASM games save a lot of the shuffle time, and as a result the level of penetration does not factor as much (for speed) on an ASM game.
    True for a shoe game. Not necessarily true for a single deck game. ASMs can actually take longer for a single deck game, if the casino adds a lot of redundant procedures before putting the deck into a machine that management paid tens of thousands of dollars for, but doesn't trust. The worst would be a certain large, well-known casino that will go nameless that does a big wash before shuffling in EVERY hand-dealt game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace-King View Post
    Face down, or face up -In a face down game, some players won't even really look at their hand until it is their turn to make a decision. The player's involvement with their own cards can significantly slow down the game.
    Yeah, but dealing a game face up is quite a bit slower than dealing it face down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace-King View Post
    Pitch or shoe - A dealer can deal faster from a shoe compared to the mid-air pitch.
    Again, bull! A competent dealer can pitch MUCH faster than he can deal from a shoe. Dealing to five spots should take about 2 1/2 seconds.

    Some of the events that bring a game to a dead halt are changing dealers, fills, changing cards, making change, coloring up, changing out the drop box and counting the rack, and dealing with errors. How the casino handles these events has a huge impact on game speed. For a shoe game, does the casino break the shoe if the table goes dead, or leave the rest of the pack in the shoe? Or pre-shuffle the pack, and put it in the shoe when opening a new table?

    Apart from those events, one can sum it up by saying that game speed depends considerably on the skills and habits of the individual dealer, and on the behavior of the players on the table.
    Last edited by WRX; 08-06-2012 at 05:24 PM.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    I believe JG presented a paper on game speed at the last International Conference on Gaming. If you are interested you might be able to get a copy through UNR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RWM View Post
    I believe JG presented a paper on game speed at the last International Conference on Gaming. If you are interested you might be able to get a copy through UNR.
    What is UNR?, I'm interested in read this paper.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    University of Nevada Reno sponsors the International Conference on Gambling and Risk Taking. The next one is next May. http://www.unr.edu/gaming

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    Thanks for the insight WRX, and to RWM for the lead on the game speed presented by JG...

    Quote Originally Posted by WRX View Post
    A number of good points here, but:

    Bull! A competent dealer (not enough of those left any more, admittedly) can shuffle one deck FAST. With all the complicated procedures casinos put in place, and all of the heavy stacks of cards to move around, shuffling six decks typically takes MUCH more than six times as long.
    Yes but during those periods it can be a great opportunity to leave and find a new table instead of waiting for the whole drag of a shuffle process. Leaving the table also has its advantages especially if you had some big bets out there at the end, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by WRX View Post
    True for a shoe game. Not necessarily true for a single deck game. ASMs can actually take longer for a single deck game, if the casino adds a lot of redundant procedures before putting the deck into a machine that management paid tens of thousands of dollars for, but doesn't trust.
    This brings up something worth mentioning, many times (too many IMO) I would have a heads-up double deck game with a fast dealer and we would often finish the shoe before the ASM was close to being done. I've never thought about actually clocking the shuffle time of these machines, maybe I should the next time I'm out there? Does shuffle master have pre-programmed shuffle times & procedures for all their machines on double deck games?

    Quote Originally Posted by WRX View Post
    Yeah, but dealing a game face up is quite a bit slower than dealing it face down.
    How can a face up game be slower than dealt face down? In a face down game there is time spent between the action of the cards leaving the dealers hands, the time it takes for the player to pick the cards up, and respond accordingly to the proper play of the hands. The cards also have to travel further away from the dealer, passed the betting circle and well within hand reach of the player therefore adding more time necessary for card distribution. In a face down game, other players may dramatically peel their cards off the table (taking 4 seconds) just to take a peek at their hand. The less distance traveled and physical actions that are performed, the faster the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by WRX View Post
    Again, bull! A competent dealer can pitch MUCH faster than he can deal from a shoe. Dealing to five spots should take about 2 1/2 seconds.
    I don't know, I do have limited experience playing pitch games, but I do however know that from a physical standpoint, cards dealt from a face-down/shoe game travel less distance than from the elevated pitch position. Also from a face-down/shoe game, the dealer has more control over the cards when distributing them to the player(s), therefore allowing her to increase her deal speed. I can say is that I have about 25 hours of playtime with pitch games, and they were boringly slow...guess I need to get out more and find some lightning fast pitch dealers. I'll let you know when I can find one because 5 spots in 2 1/2 seconds is wicked fast

    Quote Originally Posted by WRX View Post
    Some of the events that bring a game to a dead halt are changing dealers, fills, changing cards, making change, coloring up, changing out the drop box and counting the rack, and dealing with errors. How the casino handles these events has a huge impact on game speed. For a shoe game, does the casino break the shoe if the table goes dead, or leave the rest of the pack in the shoe? Or pre-shuffle the pack, and put it in the shoe when opening a new table?

    Apart from those events, one can sum it up by saying that game speed depends considerably on the skills and habits of the individual dealer, and on the behavior of the players on the table.
    Agreed, does the average game speed that is published in the books and wizardofodds factor in those events & considerations when they published their material?
    Last edited by Ace-King; 08-06-2012 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Multiple corrections to be made for my first quoted reply ;)

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    My butchered up response to WRX's quotes have been revised and cleaned up in an organized & orderly fashion. Ah the new things we all learn when doing something new... :P
    Last edited by Ace-King; 08-06-2012 at 09:51 PM. Reason: Update

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    Thank you for your further thoughts, Ace-King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace-King View Post
    Yes but during those periods it can be a great opportunity to leave and find a new table instead of waiting for the whole drag of a shuffle process. Leaving the table also has its advantages especially if you had some big bets out there at the end, yes?
    Clearly there are differences between the arts of playing shoes and playing single deck games. Just generally, I don't want to let myself get into a frame of mind of needing an excuse to leave a table. If the count tanks, the dealer's not giving me the game I want, or whatever, it's my right to pick up and leave without a word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace-King View Post
    Does shuffle master have pre-programmed shuffle times & procedures for all their machines...?
    I draw the inference that the length of the shuffling routine must be programmable, because in some casinos the process takes much longer than in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace-King View Post
    How can a face up game be slower than dealt face down? In a face down game there is time spent between the action of the cards leaving the dealers hands, the time it takes for the player to pick the cards up, and respond accordingly to the proper play of the hands. The cards also have to travel further away from the dealer, passed the betting circle and well within hand reach of the player therefore adding more time necessary for card distribution. In a face down game, other players may dramatically peel their cards off the table (taking 4 seconds) just to take a peek at their hand. The less distance traveled and physical actions that are performed, the faster the game. ...I don't know, I do have limited experience playing pitch games, but I do however know that from a physical standpoint, cards dealt from a face-down/shoe game travel less distance than from the elevated pitch position. Also from a face-down/shoe game, the dealer has more control over the cards when distributing them to the player(s), therefore allowing her to increase her deal speed. I can say is that I have about 25 hours of playtime with pitch games, and they were boringly slow...guess I need to get out more and find some lightning fast pitch dealers. I'll let you know when I can find one because 5 spots in 2 1/2 seconds is wicked fast....
    I speak from experience in a past life as a dealer. Hand dealing face down, you don't have to wait for one card to reach its destination before starting to deal the next one. A good dealer can pitch cards quickly, and land them in precise locations. On the other hand, when dealing face up, the dealer has to pick a card off the pack, move his hand out to the betting circle, and place the card on the table, then move his hand back to the pack to deal the next card. This takes a lot of time, not to mention being fatiguing.

    Some players will act on their hands more slowly in a face down game, it's true. Again, it depends on the individual players. A heads up game will be faster for this reason. Because WE don't take much time to play our hands, do we? I note that quite a few dealers are slower to act in response to hit and stand signals in face up games than in face down games, apparently because the signals in face up games tend to be more ambiguous or less blatant.

    And yes, I WAS wicked fast. :-)

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    Game speed is a REALLY underrated aspect of AP play. I've found some dealers that can deal 200 hands/hour heads up. Compare this to 60-80 at a full table, and you're talking about possibly tripling your hourly rate. Imagine if you could triple your salary at your job...

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