New Member.........have been lurking for awhile now. Question on Indian Gaming in OK

[MJGolf]

I have really appreciated insight on this board. Have been lurking for awhile now and will subscribe. Munchkin has corresponded with me in past and given me good advice. Big fan of Gambling With and Edge radio show/podcast. He suggested joining one of these boards as in this one or BJ21. So thought I would wet my feet and join here.

Have played for a long, long time in BJ finally becoming what I would call a rudimentary counter (not just with bet fluctuations but also strategy variations based upon count). It took me a long time to get here and I am still practicing and learning. But I have been lucky enough to use the comps and discounts to think that in the long run, I have had a positive EV.......LOL But hey, it's a tough game. (And yes, Munch, I know what to do with Soft 17)

Wanted to inquire about anyone's true experience in Oklahoma. I know that Ken Smith has played some of the promotions here; though he was worried about leaving with the money he made from what he thought was a remote location. Also, there are others that say they will NEVER play here because of the ante. First, I totally understand the ante and will NOT play, unless for a little entertainment, games with ante. Therefore trips to Tunica, Vegas and Shreveport/Bossier City this year. Michael Shackelford gave advice about how to calculate the edge when you added the ante to the playing conditions. (Here it is basically .50 every hand up to $100, then $1 per hand above. That can be quite a lot to overcome, especially to a lower limit player (green chips) like me. But lately or more recently, there are several casinos that don't charge an ante (more accurately they PAY the ante for the players) on some days or months......usually weekdays. Or promotional periods. And there is one very good place that isn't far from me that NEVER charges an ante and has dang good rules compared to most casino locations lately, across the country. 6 deck; DAS; Double any two cards; resplit as many times as you want; resplit aces up to 4 hands AND stands soft 17. What's not to like right? But it's a small place and I don't think you can play here TOO often without causing a little grief. So far so good and definitely a net win over all on my 4-5 trips there this year.

I know you guys are from all over the country. BUT what I was particularly looking for is since OK is one of the fastest growing gambling revenue states, does anyone know a site or have recommendations on OUR state? And the casinos here? Sure, there is lots of info on Vegas or Tunica or Atlantic City, etc. But hey, we have casinos that have just as high a limits and types of games and lots of locations. For example WinStar is the largest casino floor in the world. Not that it makes it a great place to play but there ARE games out here.

C'mon now.....anyone have ANY advice for OKLAHOMA blackjack enthusiasts?

[bigplayer]

Some of the smaller casinos in OK are pretty nasty with regards to counters and big winners. The tribe is supposed to make money from the Ante and should not care what people win from the game itself, but I think winners and counters interfere with tribal plans to skim that money into the pockets of certain tribal elders. The ante can make the game unplayable but sometimes there are bonuses and other benefits that come from play that can negate much of the cost, at one time drawings and free VIP tournament invites were part of this. You'll have to sit down with pen and paper to try to figure out whether it's a wash or not but if you don't live in the area and can pick up all of the various free stuff you get in exchange for your play it would be doubtful as to whether the Ante can be adequately offset unless you are allowed to use a massive spread like $5 to $500 and structuring your bets to minimize the costs of the ante, and even then all you'd wind up with is a very poor count game.

There are some OK casinos that have no-ante days and such those would be the types of games you'd want to play but beware that some of these casinos are very very sweaty and may well back you off and these casinos are all very active contributors to the OSN network. If you play at a giant place like Winstar you'd have nothing to worry about.

Remember, Tribes are Sovereign Nations and if you wind up with a legal problem (civil rights violation, whatever) you really have no recourse against them.

[MJGolf]

Thanks bigplayer for the advice. I agree that I want to only play the non-ante days or promotions when possible. Winstar, to my knowledge NEVER rids themselves of the ante and so far, no true "counter" counter activity noticed. But I have only started playing here locally recently again because of the no ante games when available. Always have saved my trips for other areas of the country. I understand the tribal views about being a sovereign nation. Luckily I have some attorney acquaintances that are also tribal lawyers but that depends upon tribe as each section of state is governed "mainly" by one of the Five Civilized Tribes. Choctaw, Cherokee, etc. I have NEVER tried a $5 to $500 spread..........might be interesting to try it at one of these places, feigning having a good time "drinking".........LOL

And you are right........legally or technically at least. The ante is the ONLY thing the tribe (less certain expenses) is supposed to make from the games. The rest is legally or technically supposed to be returned to the players as pooled winnings. Therefore all the free blackjack tournaments; drawings for cars only for blackjack players; etc. The one thing I do NOT understand about OK tribes and comping is the failure to give back much of this to us, other than a little free play. Shoot, most of the places don't have adjoining hotels or restaurants TO comp you if they wanted........

[counter19]

If I were the casino and the customers had to pay an ante, I would NEVER be worried about card counters! The ante cannot be overcome unless you do one of two things:

1. Use a spread that is big enough to drive a truck through (which may be above the maximum bet limit of the table).
or
2. Wong in on super high counts and wong out on less than even or maybe even slightly positive counts.

If you do number 1, you will be pegged immediately. If you do number 2, you will stand around for hours and only play a few bets here and there. You will then likely be pegged in these circumstances as well.

Of course, they may sweat big money regardless. If the ante really goes to help the tribes as it is supposed to, I am sure they want you to play, play, play. "Wonging" means less money for them.

Any table where you have to pay an ante should be avoided. This game is hard enough to beat.

[MJGolf]

"Any table where you have to pay an ante should be avoided. This game is hard enough to beat."

I tend to agree with you 'counter19' but we have a LOT of casinos here in OK. Some that would match or equal anything in Tunica or Bossier City. BUT what I was wondering or would like advice for IS if anyone knows how to beat the games in OK by knowing where there IS no ante (I can't locate any playing conditions site for here) OR has a way to "beat" the ante. I think with Wizard of Odds computations, unless you are playing black chip or higher, the percentage for the ante will EAT UP any advantage you could obtain by counting percentage wise. So is that my only option? Play $100 or more a hand OR just play where there is no ante promotion or casino?

Wish I could find out which ones didn't have one. For example Firelake DIDN'T have ante in June but added it back in July.........what a crock. Maybe there are learned folks from OK on site here that have some good info?