Card counting alone no longer is viable.

[seriousplayer]

You said many times "I'm not saying that the Martingale betting system can beat blackjack" but you fail to tell us what you are trying to say.Pl If you only intention is trying to saying Martingale cannot beat blackjack than what is your purpose of bringing up the Martingale system?

What are trying to say???? Please state it clearly?

[blackjackwarrior]

Yes, that is not the point. KJ touched on it as well, what do you bet after you lose a double down. Most of the time you have a decided advantage when you double down but that doesn't mean you will win every time. I don't keep track of how many hands I have loss in a row or DD's that I have loss in a row but I can tell you that it is a bunch. It is safe to say that I have lost over a dozen hands in a row more than I would like to remember. I have probably lost 10 straight DD's in a row.

You could get a DD with a big bet out there but you could get a string of 13 - 16's that will make you pull your hair out.

Read this and call me in the morning ...

http://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wiza...ms/martingale/

You count cards with the purpose of upping your bet when it's favorable to you. I would only put that double down bet out there if it's favorable to me - we work so hard to get to that point, almost like counting cards - if we lose - hey we had the advantage.

[KJ]

but there is an advantage because of the betting system's progressive betting progression.

There isn't!!! There just isn't!!! The earth just isn't flat, my friend.

[blackjackwarrior]

You said many times "I'm not saying that the Martingale betting system can beat blackjack" but you fail to tell us what you are trying to say.Pl If you only intention is trying to saying Martingale cannot beat blackjack than what is your purpose of bringing up the Martingale system?

What are trying to say???? Please state it clearly?

It is the betting progression - 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320 - Suppose you lose 10 - you bet 20 - again you have to disregard card counting - you lose - you bet 40 - you lose - you bet 80 - now you have a chance to double down. In blackjack would you take that situation? Okay I will make it easier. Playing in a continuous shuffler, would you welcome that double down if it was a 6 and 4 vs a 6? That is the advantage of using the Martingale System - although all of its flaws - that is the advantage.

[KJ]

It is the betting progression - 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320 - Suppose you lose 10 - you bet 20 - again you have to disregard card counting - you lose - you bet 40 - you lose - you bet 80 - now you have a chance to double down. In blackjack would you take that situation? Okay I will make it easier. Playing in a continuous shuffler, would you welcome that double down if it was a 6 and 4 vs a 6? That is the advantage of using the Martingale System - although all of its flaws - that is the advantage.

Nope. No advantage. You seem to want to take blackjack basic strategy play, which is -EV and a martingale, progressive betting system, which is -EV and put them together and think that somehow make a +EV situation.

[RobinHood21]

So how would you handle it?

I'll give an example... Keep in mind most effective casino personnel prioritize effectively.

If I'm running the shift and a floor or even a dealer (which I've had happen) comes to me with a hunch or evaluation of a player the first questions I ask are, "What is he spreading and in what units?". Now with that information I can make a decision to proceed further (get with surveillance and review tape) or just place a note in the account (if player is being rated) and keep moving along or come back at a later time.

Casino Managers (whom are generally making the decisions to BO or bar players) have a lot of tasks and things to handle throughout their day. If it's a Friday night and I have some significant play in my HL, I will not only be keeping a closer eye on those games, but I will also have to become somewhat of a Host to these players quite often. If credit players are playing and they need more money, which happens nearly every weekend, I am the one to issue or approve more. If guest complaints in hotel need to be resolved, I am the one to handle discretionary comps. Valet issues. Restaurant issues. Personnel issues. Dealer complaints. Floor complaints. Sending people home. Making sure my staff is getting proper breaks. Notifying upper management of win/loss' for certain players. Writing reports. You'd be amazed of all the chaos that goes on behind the scenes.

I am contradicting... But try to put yourself into the shoes of management. You are faced with many business decisions throughout your day. And if you understand your games you can let some of the money slip through as long as you are prioritizing in the right order.

[seriousplayer]

It is the betting progression - 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320 - Suppose you lose 10 - you bet 20 - again you have to disregard card counting - you lose - you bet 40 - you lose - you bet 80 - now you have a chance to double down. In blackjack would you take that situation? Okay I will make it easier. Playing in a continuous shuffler, would you welcome that double down if it was a 6 and 4 vs a 6? That is the advantage of using the Martingale System - although all of its flaws - that is the advantage.

You didn't take into account losing 10-15 hands in a row. Losing 10-15 hands in a row does happen. If losing ten in a row the betting progression will be as follows: 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320, 640, 1280, 2560, 5120. You already reach the TABLE LIMIT. Suppose you lose the double down on 5120 than it will result in mass losses.

[blackjackwarrior]

If you're method works why would a casino offer a $10-$10,000 game?

And yes, I've seen it. It was in your home state of CA. For at least 3 years, if I recall correctly. It may still be available (SURFER may be able to confirm for me).

If you worked in a casino in CA you may not have seen any BJ bars or BO's because of a number of possibilities...

1. Your staff was incompetent to protect their games so they made them unbeatable or not worth playing (which I see more and more of in CA).
2. No one good enough to be barred or BO'd has been spotted playing or even played at all.
3. You were out of the loop of barrings or BO's (ie. you were a dealer, floor, or in a different department entirely). They are often very discreet with these types of situations as to avoid any bad publicity.
4. Your previous casino did not have anyone competent to recognize if one was counting (I hope not). Many small card rooms in CA are poorly staffed.

I have been barred and BO'd and I know quite a few people that have been barred or BO'd. I know people that have been BO'd for not even counting but just moving their bets up and down significantly or winning a hefty amount that the casino can no longer tolerate. I have barred and BO'd players myself during my career as well. My superiors would not allow me to implement procedures to remove these types of players form playing if card counting was not a risk to the business.

When I say no one good enough to be BO'd or barred (#2) has played or been spotted I mean that red chippers or even green chippers really don't effect a Table Games Department's bottom line. If I'm a Shift Manager of a casino, I would not appreciate and would not allow these low level players to grind my shift, but I wouldn't waste my time evaluating them to make sure they are playing a game good enough to beat me. My focus would be on the play that can really damage my hold.

I'd like to know what you mean by "player friendly"???

I ask you this as a management of casinos - how can card counting ever be effective when there is such a huge inaccuracy rate - (+/-) whatever the dealer doesn't deal out. If we were play 30 years ago and the dealers dealt all the way through - yes. But now all we have is 'people get barred' as proof.

[RobinHood21]

And there may be players that the casino bars because those players bet irregularly and they don't want to take the risk of losing, but it's not from his superior card counting ability. All the casino has to do to negate any effectiveness in card counting is have the dealer shuffle prematurely - they know this. In the places that you have work, rather than bar the player I don't see why you can't have the dealers shuffle after one game.
As for player friendly games, there used to be a single deck blackjack game where you can surrender half at any time, double down at any time, split if your cards match. For example if you have and 8 and 3, and you double down and got a 3, if the top card of your hand is the 3, then you can split that 3 from the double down and make a new hand all the while get another card for you double down. However, blackjack pays even unless you have them suited in diamonds, but who's crying. This was in Colusa Casino.
Then the only existing game I know that is still player friendly is the no-bust in Club One in Fresno.

I highlighted and underlined an important part of your post...

It is not profitable for casinos to shuffle after every deal or round or even cut the shoes shorter. Hands per hour is what makes the casino money. If you spend more time shuffling you lose potential profits. I recommend reading Bill Zender's book "Casino-ology 2" if you are still in or even not in the Casino business. This will help you understand and could be used as a tool when applying for higher positions.

As for the second part of your post... http://wizardofodds.com/games/no-bust-21/ (At the bottom of the page it lists the edge for number of decks and I'm guessing that you were offering an 8-deck game.

I think you should research your games before posting. I'm not sure of your crazy game you listed first, but my educated guess is that it is also not "player friendly".

[blackjackwarrior]

You didn't take into account losing 10-15 hands in a row. Losing 10-15 hands in a row does happen. If losing ten in a row the betting progression will be as follows: 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320, 640, 1280, 2560, 5120. You already reach the TABLE LIMIT. Suppose you lose the double down on 5120 than it will result in mass losses.

Hey, thanks for the discussion. I'm not saying that the Martingale system is viable. Yes if you lose all those bets as you say then you're going to lose. But you can't deny that there is a possibility on that $5120 bet in blackjack, you can double down if you were to receive 6 and 4 vs a 6.

[ZenKinG]

I ask you this as a management of casinos - how can card counting ever be effective when there is such a huge inaccuracy rate - (+/-) whatever the dealer doesn't deal out. If we were play 30 years ago and the dealers dealt all the way through - yes. But now all we have is 'people get barred' as proof.

Card counting doesnt work, its a huge myth

[blackjackwarrior]

I highlighted and underlined an important part of your post...

It is not profitable for casinos to shuffle after every deal or round or even cut the shoes shorter. Hands per hour is what makes the casino money. If you spend more time shuffling you lose potential profits. I recommend reading Bill Zender's book "Casino-ology 2" if you are still in or even not in the Casino business. This will help you understand and could be used as a tool when applying for higher positions.

As for the second part of your post... http://wizardofodds.com/games/no-bust-21/ (At the bottom of the page it lists the edge for number of decks and I'm guessing that you were offering an 8-deck game.

I think you should research your games before posting. I'm not sure of your crazy game you listed first, but my educated guess is that it is also not "player friendly".

It is true that a faster dealer can make the casino more money, but do you agree that a card counter inaccuracy rate is quite large. Also how can that "crazy game" not be play friendly. What would you consider a player friendly game?

[blackjackwarrior]

Card counting doesnt work, its a huge myth

Yes to a degree it's become so. There amount the dealer doesn't dealer out simply nullifies any effectiveness. I can prove it. Take a deck of the tens and put them out of play - that's exactly what they've done.