Card counting alone no longer is viable.

[KJ]

You laugh but where am I wrong? Why don't you show me?

Two places you are wrong or not considering.

Bet sequence: 10-20-40-80-160-320-640-1280

On your fourth wager of $80, you get a double down or split situation where you lose both bets. So you now are down $230 and your next wager is $160? This is why BJ is a bad play for martingale to begin with. The only way to continue is to skip through the next wager amount of $160 and bet $320, thus shortening even further your loss streak window.

But let's forget about the double down situation. You play all your wagers straight up. What happens after the $640 loss, when you need to bet $1280 but the table max is $1000? Ok I guess you wager the table max of $1000. You lose that, for your 8th loss and then what? You are down $2270 and can't continue with the sequence. Down $2270, it is going to take a lot of $10 win cycles to catch up. You never will catch up. There will be another 9 loss string before you ever do. You will just continue to spiral deeper and deeper in the hole.

[blackjackwarrior]

Blackjack warrior, you need to stop posting and start studying the game. I am not sure if you are trolling on purpose or be accident but you definitely are.

So you finally get up to your $320 bet and you get a double. Let's say 11 vs 6, nice juicy double right? You get a 2 one your 11 for a total of 13. No problem the dealer is going to bust. Then the dealer has a 5 in the hole, uh oh . His next card is a 5, YES!!!!! He is at 16, he has to bust. You are already counting the $640, thinking about how nice your stack is going to look. Here it comes, wait for it ........ an Ace. Sad game show music plays.

What do you bet next?

I'm going to ask you something. At that spot of $320 would you want a double down if you can disregarding the count?

[blackjackwarrior]

Two places you are wrong or not considering.

Bet sequence: 10-20-40-80-160-320-640-1280

On your fourth wager of $80, you get a double down or split situation where you lose both bets. So you now are down $230 and your next wager is $160? This is why BJ is a bad play for martingale to begin with. The only way to continue is to skip through the next wager amount of $160 and bet $320, thus shortening even further your loss streak window.

But let's forget about the double down situation. You play all your wagers straight up. What happens after the $640 loss, when you need to bet $1280 but the table max is $1000? Ok I guess you wager the table max of $1000. You lose that, for your 8th loss and then what? You are down $2270 and can't continue with the sequence. Down $2270, it is going to take a lot of $10 win cycles to catch up. You never will catch up. There will be another 9 loss string before you ever do. You will just continue to spiral deeper and deeper in the hole.

I welcome all opportunities of double down - that doesn't mean I will do it, but I have the option. And if I double and I lose I know I had the advantage. It is the same logic as card counting - you go into a bet with the advantage. The Martingale set ups those bets to where I can have the advantage.

[ZenKinG]

I welcome all opportunities of double down - that doesn't mean I will do it, but I have the option. And if I double and I lose I know I had the advantage. It is the same logic as card counting - you go into a bet with the advantage. The Martingale set ups those bets to where I can have the advantage.

Yes stick to martingale, dont listen to anyone, update us on your winnings , good luck im sure you'll do well.

[RobinHood21]

We have no proof either or. Do you know anybody whose been barred? I use to work in a casino and card counters there were none - this is in california where cardroom games are player friendly.

If you're method works why would a casino offer a $10-$10,000 game?

And yes, I've seen it. It was in your home state of CA. For at least 3 years, if I recall correctly. It may still be available (SURFER may be able to confirm for me).

If you worked in a casino in CA you may not have seen any BJ bars or BO's because of a number of possibilities...

1. Your staff was incompetent to protect their games so they made them unbeatable or not worth playing (which I see more and more of in CA).
2. No one good enough to be barred or BO'd has been spotted playing or even played at all.
3. You were out of the loop of barrings or BO's (ie. you were a dealer, floor, or in a different department entirely). They are often very discreet with these types of situations as to avoid any bad publicity.
4. Your previous casino did not have anyone competent to recognize if one was counting (I hope not). Many small card rooms in CA are poorly staffed.

I have been barred and BO'd and I know quite a few people that have been barred or BO'd. I know people that have been BO'd for not even counting but just moving their bets up and down significantly or winning a hefty amount that the casino can no longer tolerate. I have barred and BO'd players myself during my career as well. My superiors would not allow me to implement procedures to remove these types of players form playing if card counting was not a risk to the business.

When I say no one good enough to be BO'd or barred (#2) has played or been spotted I mean that red chippers or even green chippers really don't effect a Table Games Department's bottom line. If I'm a Shift Manager of a casino, I would not appreciate and would not allow these low level players to grind my shift, but I wouldn't waste my time evaluating them to make sure they are playing a game good enough to beat me. My focus would be on the play that can really damage my hold.

I'd like to know what you mean by "player friendly"???

[DM21]

I'm going to ask you something. At that spot of $320 would you that a double down if you can disregarding the count?

Yes, that is not the point. KJ touched on it as well, what do you bet after you lose a double down. Most of the time you have a decided advantage when you double down but that doesn't mean you will win every time. I don't keep track of how many hands I have loss in a row or DD's that I have loss in a row but I can tell you that it is a bunch. It is safe to say that I have lost over a dozen hands in a row more than I would like to remember. I have probably lost 10 straight DD's in a row.

You could get a DD with a big bet out there but you could get a string of 13 - 16's that will make you pull your hair out.

Read this and call me in the morning ...

http://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wiza...ms/martingale/

[blackjackwarrior]

Yes stick to martingale, dont listen to anyone, update us on your winnings , good luck im sure you'll do well.

Again what's the point of your post. I'm saying that when you use a progressive betting progression such as the Martingale System, there is an advantage - you set yourself up from double downs with high bets. Disprove me. Why is that not so?

[ZenKinG]

Again what's the point of your post. I'm saying that when you use a progressive betting progression such as the Martingale System, there is an advantage - you set yourself up from double downs with high bets. Disprove me. Why is that not so?

Nothing to disprove, stick to it, its a winning system, please update us on your progress

[RobinHood21]

I'm saying that when you use a progressive betting progression such as the Martingale System, there is an advantage - you set yourself up from double downs with high bets. Disprove me. Why is that not so?

There is at times an advantage... True... When you get into high positive counts with your large bets out and receive double downs or BJ's. But you will find yourself more often in negative counts with large bets out when double down situations occur and less BJ's. And on the flip side, you will be putting min bets in when it is in your favor. Which means you are missing opportunities for those great DD's and BJ's.

[KJ]

When I say no one good enough to be BO'd or barred (#2) has played or been spotted I mean that red chippers or even green chippers really don't effect a Table Games Department's bottom line. If I'm a Shift Manager of a casino, I would not appreciate and would not allow these low level players to grind my shift, but I wouldn't waste my time evaluating them to make sure they are playing a game good enough to beat me. My focus would be on the play that can really damage my hold.

RobinHood21, I appreciate your contributions to the site and your sharing of your experiences, especially from the other side of the table. I always welcome the opportunity to hear the thoughts of those on the other side.

I appreciate and share your Zender-like conclusion that low and even mid level counters don't effect the casino's bottom line. But I don't quite understand the statement you made after that which I highlighted. You wouldn't allow them, yet you wouldn't waste time evaluating them? It seems like a contradiction, but maybe I am just not understanding you. So how would you handle it?

[seriousplayer]

"First off, if you don't have the advantage, you don't double."
What information in the Martingale system tells you, you don't have the advantage??? Can you answer that question using the Martingale?

"Magnification comes only when you double down on a favorable bet such as 6 and 4 vs a 6 with alot of small cards out."

Looking for a lot of small cards out is no longer the Martingale System it is the theories of card counting. Looking for a lot of small cards out is not part of the Martingale system. You are the one trying to connect Martingale with card counting by looking for alot of small cards out in the statement above.

[blackjackwarrior]

If you're method works why would a casino offer a $10-$10,000 game?

And yes, I've seen it. It was in your home state of CA. For at least 3 years, if I recall correctly. It may still be available (SURFER may be able to confirm for me).

If you worked in a casino in CA you may not have seen any BJ bars or BO's because of a number of possibilities...

1. Your staff was incompetent to protect their games so they made them unbeatable or not worth playing (which I see more and more of in CA).
2. No one good enough to be barred or BO'd has been spotted playing or even played at all.
3. You were out of the loop of barrings or BO's (ie. you were a dealer, floor, or in a different department entirely). They are often very discreet with these types of situations as to avoid any bad publicity.
4. Your previous casino did not have anyone competent to recognize if one was counting (I hope not). Many small card rooms in CA are poorly staffed.

I have been barred and BO'd and I know quite a few people that have been barred or BO'd. I know people that have been BO'd for not even counting but just moving their bets up and down significantly or winning a hefty amount that the casino can no longer tolerate. I have barred and BO'd players myself during my career as well. My superiors would not allow me to implement procedures to remove these types of players form playing if card counting was not a risk to the business.

When I say no one good enough to be BO'd or barred (#2) has played or been spotted I mean that red chippers or even green chippers really don't effect a Table Games Department's bottom line. If I'm a Shift Manager of a casino, I would not appreciate and would not allow these low level players to grind my shift, but I wouldn't waste my time evaluating them to make sure they are playing a game good enough to beat me. My focus would be on the play that can really damage my hold.

I'd like to know what you mean by "player friendly"???

First off thank you for the lengthy response. I'm not saying that the Martingale betting system can beat blackjack, but there is an advantage because of the betting system's progressive betting progression.
And there may be players that the casino bars because those players bet irregularly and they don't want to take the risk of losing, but it's not from his superior card counting ability. All the casino has to do to negate any effectiveness in card counting is have the dealer shuffle prematurely - they know this. In the places that you have work, rather than bar the player I don't see why you can't have the dealers shuffle after one game.
As for player friendly games, there used to be a single deck blackjack game where you can surrender half at any time, double down at any time, split if your cards match. For example if you have and 8 and 3, and you double down and got a 3, if the top card of your hand is the 3, then you can split that 3 from the double down and make a new hand all the while get another card for you double down. However, blackjack pays even unless you have them suited in diamonds, but who's crying. This was in Colusa Casino.
Then the only existing game I know that is still player friendly is the no-bust in Club One in Fresno.

[blackjackwarrior]

"First off, if you don't have the advantage, you don't double."
What information in the Martingale system tells you, you don't have the advantage??? Can you answer that question using the Martingale?

"Magnification comes only when you double down on a favorable bet such as 6 and 4 vs a 6 with alot of small cards out."

Looking for a lot of small cards out is no longer the Martingale System it is the theories of card counting. Looking for a lot of small cards out is not part of the Martingale system. You are the one trying to connect Martingale with card counting by looking for alot of small cards out in the statement above.

More options is only good for the players. Don't try to look at the Martingale System through the eyes of a card counter. The Martingale Betting System has a lot of flaws. But as I've always said it is the progressive betting progression of a system like the Martingale that allows for us to set up these high bet double downs.