What can I do? What will you do?

[BJGenius007]

Recently I had something happening to me the first time. I played head-to-head to a dealer that I think he always hates me because he thinks I win too much even I gave him good tips based on that he is the fastest dealer in this casino. Because he is super fast, most ploppies avoid him so his table is usually empty.

here is what happened. Two cards accidentally came out of the shoe box simultaneously instead of one. This happened before, actually it happened quite often. But this time it is unusual because he quickly took a peek on both cards. Very subtly done. But I know he got it. Then he handed me the card on the bottom, which is four. And keep himself the card on the top, which came out first and should be mine. Again, it is very subtly done. It turns out he kept the ace card and the dealer won this hand. At that time, I was thinking, "Wow, I had a great disadvantage on this." Then I thought, "But he can't do it again. This should be one time deal." So I did not react and let it slide. What will you do if the same thing happens to you?

[Blitzkrieg]

If it was supposed to be my Ace and after seeing that 4 I would have fought tooth and nail for it by calling the floor/pitboss over there and explained to him that his dealer made a mistake. It easily could have been declared a dead hand to where you could have taken your bet back if you wanted to. If you don't take up for yourself no one will as the casino is always looking for an edge over the players. Players shouldn't have to put up with their bullshit.

[KJ]

Well, I certainly would not play with that dealer anymore. What he did amounts to cheating. No different than dealing seconds, even if it was 'accidental'. And frankly it probably wasn't the one time occurrence that you think it was. Dealers that try to deal very quickly often make this kind of mistakes. I see it a lot...very common. They will blame the shoe, and sometimes lift the shoe and slam it down saying the cards are sticking, but it really is all about them trying to deal too fast. So bottom line for me, if the dealer doesn't want you to win, and is willing to cheat you, accidentally or otherwise, I am finding a different dealer.

Now how I would handle it....that depends on circumstances. If it's a store in my regular rotation, I would probably just move on. I might say something to the dealer about how he looked at both cards and gave himself the ace which was really my card. Of course he will deny that, but it let's him know that you know. Maybe he will think twice next time.

The other factor is bet size. If I had my max bet or even a large bet, I would be tempted to raise hell. Call the pit over and tell them that the dealer looked at both cards and took the Ace, which should have been my card. Let them go to the tape. There is a good chance you will get your money back for the losing wager. Also a good chance the dealer will have to answer for his actions. But, of course the down side, is the attention you are drawing towards yourself. I generally avoid attention at all costs. So the question that I would have to weigh is whether 4 or 5 hundred dollars (my max bet), worth the negative attention and consequences that I am drawing?

[Winnie D]

I would have called the floorperson/pit boss over to make a ruling, accept whatever that ruling is, then I would color up and leave the table as quickly and politely as I can and never play against that dealer again. The cheating speaks for itself and should always be called out, but I have a particular peeve against playing against fast dealers. Like moses, I scout dealers too before I sit down at a table. Fast dealers just kind of take the joy out of the game for me, same goes for rude and/or mean dealers. I always look for dealers who deal at a moderate pace, and if I'm lucky, enjoy a little meaningless conversation on the side.

[Three]

I would have called the floor immediately. I think it is the law that the floor must be called in this situation. usually you are given the option of which card you want if there is a dispute about what happened. If they don't follow misdeal procedures and the tape reveals they dealt you the second card they are up for a 6 figure fine and you get your money back. There is no upside for them and its the floors job to protect the house from the huge liability. The Floor should immediately give you the option to protect the house. Wherever I play the Floor knows I know the regulations and are quick to make sure I am happy about any resolution.

I had one Floor try to not give me an option like it was her choice. I promptly pointed out it wasn't really up to her to decide what should happen but up to her to protect the casino by following the law. I asked for the pit boss who said without coming over to give me an option. I had another that called a hand dead at my request since following the law still hurt me but calling the hand dead rectified skipping my hand. I would have pushed with a win and a lose. They couldn't back up the cards and were giving me the option to back out of the skipped hand but play the crappy doubled hand that caught the card.

[RS]

Some idiot dealer gave me ONE card when I specifically said "split" and did the peace sign with my fingers, and my extra money was a good distance away from my bet. I was given a T (4,4v6) and immediately said I wanted to split before I even saw the card. Of course when I got the T, we agreed "it was OK".

I suspect he did it on purpose so I could potentially have the option.

[ZeeBabar]

The very rare times when a dealer is ultra fast and unfriendly, I tend to piss him off even more by taking my own time making a decision, after a hand I take my own time putting my money out and very soon the dealer gets the message. Count to 10 before making a decision, wait a few extra seconds after he is ready to deal before putting money out.

[KJ]

I would have called the floor immediately. I think it is the law that the floor must be called in this situation. usually you are given the option of which card you want if there is a dispute about what happened. If they don't follow misdeal procedures and the tape reveals they dealt you the second card they are up for a 6 figure fine and you get your money back. There is no upside for them and its the floors job to protect the house from the huge liability. The Floor should immediately give you the option to protect the house. Wherever I play the Floor knows I know the regulations and are quick to make sure I am happy about any resolution.

I had one Floor try to not give me an option like it was her choice. I promptly pointed out it wasn't really up to her to decide what should happen but up to her to protect the casino by following the law. I asked for the pit boss who said without coming over to give me an option. I had another that called a hand dead at my request since following the law still hurt me but calling the hand dead rectified skipping my hand. I would have pushed with a win and a lose. They couldn't back up the cards and were giving me the option to back out of the skipped hand but play the crappy doubled hand that caught the card.

T3, I can't argue with what you say. I can't say that I know what the fine is here in Nevada, as you do for your jurisdiction, but I know it is against the rules/law. I also am not sure exactly where you play (somewhere on east coast, I presume), so I don't know what the law is concerning whether casino's can ban you from playing. That is my concern here in Vegas where I play.

I play a lot of places, where my play is 'tolerated'. I often get a look of recognition from pit when I sit down. I try really hard to fly under the radar and play unnoticed, but I know some of them know me and know my game. But as I said, I think some tolerate me because I play within their tolerance level and they know I am in and out fairly quickly. I often think just looking the other way and letting me play, knowing I will be gone in a short time is more about them than me. It is the "path of least resistance", meaning if they do nothing, the problem (me) will resolve itself.

So my concern is that this type of incident, calling the pit over, could be just the attention type thing that rocks the boat just enough to change my favorable status quo. maybe they no longer tolerate me. That is why, I would probably just let it go and exit that table not to play with that dealer again. The exception would be if it was a max bet situation and even then I would have to consider if this was one of my 'better' games and 'better' stores, and also if it was a chain type casino, where heat or loss of game here could effect other games. Everything comes down to risk vs reward and not just the risk vs reward for this immediate situation, but risk vs reward for my longer term situation.

[Sharky]

...usually you are given the option of which card you want if there is a dispute about what happened...

...been playing 30+ yrs and never heard of this...usually it's the option to back out of the hand...but to say the usually let you "pick your card"??? WOW

also never heard of playing out the hand and then calling the pit over to correct..once you agree to continue (ie "act") your options are slim...

not saying anyone's lying here, just strengthens my claim that i'm more surprised when i go to a new city and they don't have table games, than when they do...so with all these new games and dealers/pit/etc anything is possible....just wish i had more time to get to all these games
w

[Exoter175]

BJGenius: You're a counter...and from what I've read a fairly proficient one at that. Top-notch players exist because they allow them to play. Getting cheated, beated, and mistreated is just part of the game. Super-fast dealers, in general, are the most likely to be cheaters. Nonetheless, whenever I'm not getting a fair game my only recourse is to slide my chips forward to color up and quietly walk away. Of course, that dealer will never see another dollar or hand played from me. Also, I generally scout a dealer before ever playing against them.

Moses, I adjusted your quote slightly to fit my purpose here. The part I bolded is a very, very ,very, very, very important thing to consider if you play for longevity, and slightly less so for a "hit and run" approach. Maximizing EV, for anyone, isn't just about playing your game a specific way, but also about getting enough hands in. If you're playing with a dealer who reaches 60-70 HPH with two hands/players on the table, in all honesty, probably best to avoid them. There's a number of dealers at specific joints and shifts here where I live that I will personally tailor my game to, because I can hit unreasonably high HPH levels heads up with them. We're talking sustained 260+, and accurate as well as honest. The one specific guy I have here in reference, and I play with him every chance I get if we can go heads up because he's lightning fast and doesn't care about my game, could probably compete or break the world record for card dealing speed. I've never seen this kind of speed before. He could deal an entire table out their hands and have your numbers tallied up before you even see your first card, or at least it feels that way lol.

As far as the rest of everyone talking about fast dealers, I've found that fast dealers where I live, are largely more honest than the slow dealers. I don't find that they are cheaters at all. Then again, I don't live in LV or AC either, and just about every dealer I found out there was a grumpy butt.

I would have called the floor immediately. I think it is the law that the floor must be called in this situation. usually you are given the option of which card you want if there is a dispute about what happened. If they don't follow misdeal procedures and the tape reveals they dealt you the second card they are up for a 6 figure fine and you get your money back. There is no upside for them and its the floors job to protect the house from the huge liability. The Floor should immediately give you the option to protect the house. Wherever I play the Floor knows I know the regulations and are quick to make sure I am happy about any resolution.

I had one Floor try to not give me an option like it was her choice. I promptly pointed out it wasn't really up to her to decide what should happen but up to her to protect the casino by following the law. I asked for the pit boss who said without coming over to give me an option. I had another that called a hand dead at my request since following the law still hurt me but calling the hand dead rectified skipping my hand. I would have pushed with a win and a lose. They couldn't back up the cards and were giving me the option to back out of the skipped hand but play the crappy doubled hand that caught the card.

That's another thing, is that different floor personnel, as I've come to find, will do things differently.

I've had a dealer hit a hard 20 and bust it, called floor, and took back the 2 and lost my bet. I've had misdeals where they would back the cards up and allow us to take our bets back, and have had misdeals where they wouldn't back the cards up but would allow us to take our bets back. I've had a dealer give me a card after a wave off, and then beat me, only to have the floor come back and bust her because the EITS saw me wave it off after we "asked for a ruling" on it.

I see all manner of nonsense, and the only time I've ever been burned was the time the dealer hit the 20 to make 22, because not only did he back the card up, but he burned it, after giving me the option to take the card, which I believe was a big nono there, but I let it slide.

[BJGenius007]

Well, I certainly would not play with that dealer anymore. What he did amounts to cheating. No different than dealing seconds, even if it was 'accidental'. And frankly it probably wasn't the one time occurrence that you think it was. Dealers that try to deal very quickly often make this kind of mistakes. I see it a lot...very common. They will blame the shoe, and sometimes lift the shoe and slam it down saying the cards are sticking, but it really is all about them trying to deal too fast. So bottom line for me, if the dealer doesn't want you to win, and is willing to cheat you, accidentally or otherwise, I am finding a different dealer.

Now how I would handle it....that depends on circumstances. If it's a store in my regular rotation, I would probably just move on. I might say something to the dealer about how he looked at both cards and gave himself the ace which was really my card. Of course he will deny that, but it let's him know that you know. Maybe he will think twice next time.

The other factor is bet size. If I had my max bet or even a large bet, I would be tempted to raise hell. Call the pit over and tell them that the dealer looked at both cards and took the Ace, which should have been my card. Let them go to the tape. There is a good chance you will get your money back for the losing wager. Also a good chance the dealer will have to answer for his actions. But, of course the down side, is the attention you are drawing towards yourself. I generally avoid attention at all costs. So the question that I would have to weigh is whether 4 or 5 hundred dollars (my max bet), worth the negative attention and consequences that I am drawing?

That is why I did I did. I don't want to draw attention for a table minimal bet.

[BJGenius007]

Ex Man. I can see where a fast dealer would be beneficial in a shoe game. In a pitch game, fast dealers have fast hands and thus have a better chance at getting away with cheating. Some deal seconds, I know they do, but I still can't see it. Quite often, they are standing alone at their table like a member tossed out of the lonely hearts club.

First, I totally agree with this post.

Old habit, die hard. Although the casino has only shoe game, I can see this dealer used to work in LV. It is easy for trained dealers in a pitch game to peek the top two cards and deal the second to the player and keep the better card himself or herself. When you play in Las Vegas and see the dealers position himself to see the top two cards before they are dealt, watch out. He doesn't glance the cards just for the curiosity. The dealers may not do this for the casino. Sometimes just because they like to "punish" the players they hate.

[mofungoo]

. In a pitch game, fast dealers have fast hands and thus have a better chance at getting away with cheating. Some deal seconds, I know they do, but I still can't see it.

It's often easier to hear a second being dealt, because the dealt card is coming from between two cards, not off the top. Look around on the interweb for videos on how to deal seconds, and learn to do it yourself. It's easier to identify if a dealer is dealing seconds if you know how to do it yourself. Also, look for the peek. There is no point in dealing seconds if there is no next card information.