Strategy at Crowded Table

[greg16394]

When you have just crowded table to play, would you like to sleep at home or go ahead to play ? Table condition is for sure too bad, better to avoid. But, is it better to play than sleep at home ? EV would be same as head up play ?? Results would be different ??
Reason for this question is because I experienced very bad results many times. At high counts, when I raised bet, just crappy cards fell down to me, counts drop to zero to negative after ONE round. So, I tried to avoid crowded table or time zone. It made me lack of work hours.
I wanna know what APs think about this situation.
For example, spread less aggressively to avoid big damage, such as 1-8 instead of 1-15 or just flat bet even at high counts....

[KJ]

I am having a little bit of trouble understanding the 'sleep at home' reference, Greg16394. Are you asking if, given that this is your only choice, is it better to play or go home?

A big part of being successful has to do with locating and being able to play good games and conditions. If all you have to work with are bad games and crowded condition, it becomes even more up an uphill climb. There is a lot of spinning your wheel and going no where. When crowded conditions are all that is available to you, that is a time many players sit down and re-evaluate where they are and where they are going. I found myself in a similar situation 3 years ago, and decided to up and relocate 2500 miles to a place with better conditions....more games and less crowded games. Few players will make such a drastic move, but faced with this problem, some may decide they need to incorporate more travel to better games into their plans. For others, this is an obstacle that drives them from the game entirely.

The thinking in your last line is backwards from my own thinking. If forced to play these conditions, you are going to see fewer high counts. You would need increase not decrease your spread to compensate for that, and yes, that is going to play havoc with short term variance.

[bigplayer]

If it's always crowded there then you don't have much of a choice, start off with two hands to lock up your spots and then drop to 1 as soon as 1 hand loses and spread back to two hands (if allowed) when you have the advantage. If there are times when it's not crowded keep this in mind, you're exposing your spread to the pit and the eye but only getting 1/2 to 1/3 of the EV you would get playing heads up at another time. IMHO the best time to play is when there is some other action but still uncrowded conditions. Very crowded and completely empty is bad for a card counter.

[BJGenius007]

When you have just crowded table to play, would you like to sleep at home or go ahead to play ? Table condition is for sure too bad, better to avoid. But, is it better to play than sleep at home ? EV would be same as head up play ?? Results would be different ??
Reason for this question is because I experienced very bad results many times. At high counts, when I raised bet, just crappy cards fell down to me, counts drop to zero to negative after ONE round. So, I tried to avoid crowded table or time zone. It made me lack of work hours.
I wanna know what APs think about this situation.
For example, spread less aggressively to avoid big damage, such as 1-8 instead of 1-15 or just flat bet even at high counts....

My strategy on crowded table is

1. Try to get the first base seat.
2. Spread 1-8 instead of 1-16 but capped at TC +2. (In other words, bet 8 units even TC gets higher at +3 and +4). Once ploppies begin to disappear, you can resume the normal betting size pattern.

[bjarg]

1. Try to get the first base seat.

Why is that? What difference does it make what seat you are sitting in?

2. Spread 1-8 instead of 1-16 but capped at TC +2. (In other words, bet 8 units even TC gets higher at +3 and +4). Once ploppies begin to disappear, you can resume the normal betting size pattern.

I don't understand why you would do that either.

The two disadvantages of playing in a crowded table are: slower game and other players "eating" the good cards when the count is +. Theres nothing you can do about the speed of the game, but you can counter the "eating" by spreading to 2 or more hands. Sometimes I'll even put my bets on the ploppies spots and tell them what to do with the hand (easy thing to do if they are playing the table minimum and Im at max bet).

Maybe Im missing something but I really didnt understand the post.
Bye.

[BJGenius007]

Why is that? What difference does it make what seat you are sitting in?

If you are in the first base, you know your bet correlation will be right every time. If you are in the third base, after a few splits and extra cards taken by ploppies, the true count could go negative in a full table and you have that max bet in front of you!

[Gamblor]

If you are in the first base, you know your bet correlation will be right every time. If you are in the third base, after a few splits and extra cards taken by ploppies, the true count could go negative in a full table and you have that max bet in front of you!

Technically, your bet correlation will not be "right every time", as there are still the 14 cards dealt at the table of 6 players before you have to make a decision at 1st base. Its more accurate to say it will tend to be closer to the bet correlation compared to sitting at 3rd.

[Norm]

If you are in the first base, you know your bet correlation will be right every time. If you are in the third base, after a few splits and extra cards taken by ploppies, the true count could go negative in a full table and you have that max bet in front of you!

This is a common misconception. Third base is better for playing. Doesn’t matter for betting. The third base player bets at the same time and with the same info as you.

[Baberuth]

After finally getting a big plus and seeing 2 BJs that others get will make you see why full tables suck! This will happen over and over. Even if you start one on one, another will soon join to have company and one other isn’t bad, but still you will see them get some good cards in plus situations. I have been playing more often and I look for an empty table AND good pen, which can mean the right dealer. If you have a good game, dealer (pen) and get one on one, you should be ready to score. If you relocate like KJ, you can find this more often and I would think every day. I would love to hear more about 3B vs. 1B since I have read 3B is the best for playing.

[Three]

My strategy for playing a crowded table is to walk on by. It is a high risk low reward situation. This is the type of thing to avoid except maybe to sit in on a single shoe to see where the count goes before you leave.

[greg16394]

Thanks for all answers. It slows down play, smaller number of hands per hour. Others eat up good cards.....
If you take out 'speed' out of consideration and you have no options to choose from, except full tables, would you like to squeeze in and play ? In that table, if counts go high, would you like to raise bet to 15 units (1-15) ? Otherwise, would you like to go home and practice, watch movie ?
My question is, at math/provability point, is it still profitable to play at crowded table if you have infinite number of hours ?

[Gamblor]

I would love to hear more about 3B vs. 1B since I have read 3B is the best for playing.

Seems like a debate as old as BJ. I am in the 1B is better because of the better bet correlation camp. Although TC theorem states on average the TC will remain the same, and this would seem to imply that thus it doesn't matter if you get your cards first or last, that is not the end all of the analysis. What happens is that at 3rd base compared to 1st, you get more cards given to other players before you receive yours after you made the bet. Thus, you have a larger RANDOM WALK (number of cards dealt) from when the bet was made to when you receive your cards. And the average distance from the origin traveled in a random walk of N steps is SQRT(N). So, in a table with 6 players, the player at first has a SQRT(1) and SQRT(8) (their first and second dealt card) average distance and the player at 3rd has a SQRT(6) and SQRT(13) average distance for his first two cards. Note, the #'s are a little off because in actuality, in a count like e.g., HI-LO, there are the 7-8-9 cards which have a 0 count.

I actually disagree with the 3rd base people who say 3rd base is better because of better "PE", in that you get to see more cards played. It does not matter in any realistic BJ situation.

[Norm]

Sorry, but there is no debate. Sims show that 3B is clearly superior from a PE perspective. From a betting perspective, bases are the same as long as the dealer doesn't run out of cards. Everyone gets their cards from the same shoe. Where you sit is not relevant for betting. There is no "random walk."