Shuffle/Penetration

[Three]

You would know better about the heat in your area than I and I never really play SD. That said I don't think you characterized my post properly.

2xdouble table min to 8xdouble table min in good decks.

That's a 1 to 4 spread like what you use only more profitable. You will get deeper pen. In the NMSE games I am familiar with you can't increase the number of hands you are playing until the shuffle but you can decrease but if you do you must stick to one hand until the shuffle. So to me I assume there is NMSE in SD wherever it is offered. So playing 2 hands off the top is a must if you want the extra pen. I would do it even without that benefit. The further benefit is being forced to drop to 1 hand at some point as you lower your bet. I would do that anyway but if you keep trying to bet 2 and being forced to bet one you will be afforded more latitude in most cases. Even the EITS can see you want to bet 2 hands but are being forced to bet 1. I suggest that before you poopoo this idea you sim a version that you think would fly at the stores you frequent. I think you will be amazed at the results.

2x off the top spreading up what you can get away with given what you must bet at the bottom. Where I am from you don't play pitch games for long. You get your time in and get out, VERY short sessions. A strong playing system doesn't need a big spread to beat SD. It does need to be able to spread down for the worst of what you must play through. Wonging out of those high negative counts just isn't going to work too often if you want to be invited back. Do you really want to play the worst at the same bet as a near neutral advantage? I will send you a PM I think may help you.

PS Better to PM me an Email address. I will follow the lead of ZB and stop. Let me know if I should delete any of my posts. Sometimes I divulge too much and in this case the audience is deaf.

[Three]

NMSE = no mid-shoe entry

[Three]

Here you go:

http://www.bj21.com/bj_reference/pag...election.shtml

[Three]

Like I said heads up 5 rounds dealt (RO6) play 2 hands off the top. It makes the unplayable 5 round game playable with 4 rounds 2 hands each. ZB told you to do the same. Sim the RO6 results for the 2 scenarios.

[ZenKinG]

Im not really sure what is the point you are trying to make.
Are you talking about the Deck Mate shuffler?
Do you really think 2 nights of getting your ass kicked is enough to jump to the conclusion they are cheating you?
Talk to any experienced pro here and ask them how many nights in a row they lost like that in hand shuffled games and how many times theyve experienced those imposible losing runs.
About a month or so back I played an entire week at a candy store where I dropped 150k playing this game: 6D, DOA, DAS, RSA, Full ES, 90% pen, 1 pass r&r shuffle and spreading 120x.
It was a massacre.
It was not the first time this has happened to me and and I know it was also not the last.
Shit happens my friend.

If its too good to be true, it probably is. You got cheated LOL

[Three]

It was so peaceful around here the last few says. Zenking have you ever played an off the top advantage game? Do you understand the spread adjustments that would occur? What about a spread of 120x? Big teams swoop in for these kinds of opportunities and you will hear things like we only lost $100k or $250K today because they understand the volatility that comes with betting optimally to an off the top advantage. Just because the EV is huge doesn't mean the win will be. Surrendering all those hands controls variance and saves money but you are still losing half your bet each time. When you have a nightmare day where you can't catch a card and when you do the dealer hits out to 21 every time that huge edge isn't going to help you. That 120x spread is only going to amplify the damage. With ES you have a big increase in EV on the hands you surrender but it doesn't change anything for the other hands other than the amount you risk at any TC.

You get enough experience and you will understand these things. Shit happens and if you play long enough you will see it all.

[Three]

Sorry, my comment was to ZK's reply to Bjarg saying he was cheated. I am sure Bjarg can tell when he is being cheated and beat the crap out of that game overall if they let him play that long but that was just a bad day. Without knowing his top bet you don't even know how unusual that beating was. You just know he played to a ridiculous advantage maximizing his chances and the cards didn't cooperate. (Sh)It happens.

[bjarg]

If its too good to be true, it probably is. You got cheated LOL

Thank you for your input.
Your opinion means a lot to me.

My max bet at that game is 3x4000 so a 150k downswing is not something all that weird.
Ive had many nights where at one point I was down that much and even more.
This one was particulary rough because I had to grind for an entire week watching dealers 20, 21 and BJ.
I still remember a hand where I had 24k at the table with two 19 and two 20.
dealers upcard was a 2.
His hand: 2-2-2-2-2-2-9
Talk about clumping huh?

But I quickly recovered.

[ZenKinG]

It was so peaceful around here the last few says. Zenking have you ever played an off the top advantage game? Do you understand the spread adjustments that would occur? What about a spread of 120x? Big teams swoop in for these kinds of opportunities and you will hear things like we only lost $100k or $250K today because they understand the volatility that comes with betting optimally to an off the top advantage. Just because the EV is huge doesn't mean the win will be. Surrendering all those hands controls variance and saves money but you are still losing half your bet each time. When you have a nightmare day where you can't catch a card and when you do the dealer hits out to 21 every time that huge edge isn't going to help you. That 120x spread is only going to amplify the damage. With ES you have a big increase in EV on the hands you surrender but it doesn't change anything for the other hands other than the amount you risk at any TC.

You get enough experience and you will understand these things. Shit happens and if you play long enough you will see it all.

LOL people are so sensotive on here. You don't think I know how the swings are when counting? Man get a grip. I was just offering a possible idea that he got cheated because those rules and pen are crazy good that maybe it was a trap to cheat people. Relax amigo

[Joker21]

You don't think I know how the swings are when counting?

Do you even play?

[Three]

It turns out that Bjarg was behind for the day about 12 max bet rounds. Not anything very odd.

You don't think I know how the swings are when counting?

I don't think you understand the swings when playing an off the top advantage. If you are red chipper you can green chip with the same RoR. You put out a lot more money at counts that used to be disadvantage, waiting bet counts because certain hands have a better EV. If you don't get those hands at least at or near expected frequency you are over betting the hands you do get. If you play long enough you get that frequency but in the short run you might not get any hands that has an EV increased by the sweet rules. In this case, ES, the hands with the increased EV are auto losers so getting those hands in increased frequency could be a problem contributing to a large loss even though it saves EV. It really comes down to the cards cooperating and if you TC 0 bet is much higher and so is the rest of your spread due to a shift in the ROR the swings will not be like the swings you are used to.

[ZenKinG]

Yup I dont know anything LOL. Let me bow down to all of you

[ZenKinG]

Thank you for your input.
Your opinion means a lot to me.

My max bet at that game is 3x4000 so a 150k downswing is not something all that weird.
Ive had many nights where at one point I was down that much and even more.
This one was particulary rough because I had to grind for an entire week watching dealers 20, 21 and BJ.
I still remember a hand where I had 24k at the table with two 19 and two 20.
dealers upcard was a 2.
His hand: 2-2-2-2-2-2-9
Talk about clumping huh?

But I quickly recovered.

Your opinion means a lot to me as well. kudos