Misdeal

[mrcharlie]

Scenario: Playing last two spots @ third base at a full table and have 15 and 12 with dealer showing a 7 up. Signaled to hit my 12 and the dealer hits my 15 at last spot with an 8 instead and everyone at table points out his mistake. Floor comes over and confirms they can't back up the cards and everyone gets option to back out of hand. Everyone else has 18 so they stay in, but I chose to back out of both hands instead of burning the card and playing it out as had some larger than normal bets out. Was just curious if how they handled it was correct as one of the other players was insisting I should have been given my "20" hand and the floor wasn't too confident about it. Dealer ended up having 17.

[DM21]

You did the right thing in backing out of both hands. They are negative hands with the 15 being more of an under dog than the 12, obviously. I have seen PB's go either way on those decisions. To burn the card and allow you to just get out of the hand prevents shot taking. Some places are paranoid about that and I have been suspected of it when there was a clear dealer mistake.

There are some that have perfected confusing hand signals to get the dealer to make a mistake. If they get the card they want they will just go with it, if not they say there has been a mistake.

Pushing both hands seem like a good deal because even though you would have won with the 20, the 15 was a pretty big under dog in that scenario.

DM

[Three]

Pushing both hands seem like a good deal because even though you would have won with the 20, the 15 was a pretty big under dog in that scenario.

It doesn't matter what would have happened, the right play is to pull them both hands. That will lead to a higher return in the long run. You have to trust the math. You aren't trying to guess the cards right you are trying to get the biggest mathematical edge and see how chance goes.

[Koz84]

In Australia where we don't have a hole card, such mistakes on 3rd base have proven very profitable. If I've been given a card by mistake and it's a card that would place the dealer on 12-16, I could vary my play accordingly.

[DM21]

It doesn't matter what would have happened, the right play is to pull them both hands. That will lead to a higher return in the long run. You have to trust the math. You aren't trying to guess the cards right you are trying to get the biggest mathematical edge and see how chance goes.

I said that backing out of both hands was the correct play because they are negative ev. You make it seem like I told him something else. I was merely commenting that the outcome of would have probably been the same at that instant. In actuality the ev on a 20 vs 7 is .77 and 15 vs 7 is -.36 so he did get shorted .41 if the bets were sized the same because of the mistake. The ev on the 12 vs 7 is -.21. Add those two together, it is obvious that the correct play is to back out of both hands.

DM

[Three]

I said that backing out of both hands was the correct play because they are negative ev. You make it seem like I told him something else. I was merely commenting that the outcome of would have probably been the same at that instant. In actuality the ev on a 20 vs 7 is .77 and 15 vs 7 is -.36 so he did get shorted .41 if the bets were sized the same because of the mistake. The ev on the 12 vs 7 is -.21. Add those two together, it is obvious that the correct play is to back out of both hands.

Not my intention at all. I had confidence you already knew what I was saying was right. You simply poorly worded the last part of your response and I didn't want any newbies that didn't know better to get confused by what I perceived to be somewhat ambiguous wording.

Sorry. Perhaps I should have took the time to put that in my brief post. It can be hard for the newbies to understand the correct decision often loses a hand that would have been won with an incorrect decision. The correct decision is most profitable before the cards are revealed. Sometimes newbies struggle with this concept. I just wanted to make sure the comment on what might have been in your post wasn't given the wrong emphasis by the newbies. I think you intended it to be a rational that an overall push would have likely been the hand's outcome anyway but I thought some might take this as a decision making process rather than not feeling to bad about getting the option in the first place.

Pushing both hands seem like a good deal because even though you would have won with the 20, the 15 was a pretty big under dog in that scenario.

[21gunsalute]

Scenario: Playing last two spots @ third base at a full table and have 15 and 12 with dealer showing a 7 up. Signaled to hit my 12 and the dealer hits my 15 at last spot with an 8 instead and everyone at table points out his mistake. Floor comes over and confirms they can't back up the cards and everyone gets option to back out of hand. Everyone else has 18 so they stay in, but I chose to back out of both hands instead of burning the card and playing it out as had some larger than normal bets out. Was just curious if how they handled it was correct as one of the other players was insisting I should have been given my "20" hand and the floor wasn't too confident about it. Dealer ended up having 17.

As long as no other cards came out, the 8 should have been placed on your 12. It isn't considered "backing up the cards" if no other cards came out before attention was called to it.

[RS]

Sometimes in these cases where you have an option....and you stay in, the supervisor will tell the dealer to "push" any losing bets. In other words, it's a free roll to stay in and play the hand. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case. If the difference in EV between playing the hand out and pulling your bet back is at a minimal disadvantage, you may want to play it out anyway. YMMV

[DM21]

You simply poorly worded the last part of your response and I didn't want any newbies that didn't know better to get confused by what I perceived to be somewhat ambiguous wording.

Fair enough

[ACFERRET]

Usually a card has to be drawn in error, or exposed in error, Its my opinion that the card wasnt drawn in error or exposed in error because it was requested by a player signalling to hit so it should be simply placed on the hand that requested it.

The card wasnt drawn in error, the player requested a card, and that is the card requested. It should be placed on the layout according to the procedure for dealing the game.

Bailing out on the hand is a good idea though.

[Exoter175]

In the last week I've seen similar situations like these where the PB's did different things.

I've seen them back the cards up, I've seen them offer to pull bets, and I even watched one dealer defend his action and have the PB hold it up.

[Freightman]

As long as no other cards came out, the 8 should have been placed on your 12. It isn't considered "backing up the cards" if no other cards came out before attention was called to it.

I think we've all been burned on this one - regardless - what a fascinating comment. Pasted from rules regs from my jurisdiction

10.1.2
Cards shall not be “backed-up” under any circumstances. NOTE: The next dealt card, picked-up and then replaced on a hand prior to that particular hand, would be considered a “backed-up” card.

Saying further
a) allow player who has missed hit card(s) to take hits after dealer has completed his hand. However the player must make the decision prior to play proceeding.

Clearly, the regs say that if player seated next to me gets a card, it cannot be backed up. It is far less clear, if playing heads up, dealer taking your card, still needing more cards to either stand or bust. May well be a good argument here. Think I'll call gaming and ask the question.

[Freightman]

I think we've all been burned on this one - regardless - what a fascinating comment. Pasted from rules regs from my jurisdiction

10.1.2
Cards shall not be “backed-up” under any circumstances. NOTE: The next dealt card, picked-up and then replaced on a hand prior to that particular hand, would be considered a “backed-up” card.

Saying further
a) allow player who has missed hit card(s) to take hits after dealer has completed his hand. However the player must make the decision prior to play proceeding.

Clearly, the regs say that if player seated next to me gets a card, it cannot be backed up. It is far less clear, if playing heads up, dealer taking your card, still needing more cards to either stand or bust. May well be a good argument here. Think I'll call gaming and ask the question.

I would have added this if I had been thinking of it at the time. Had a fascinating ruling a while back - playing out of town, heads up - dealer gives herself an ace on top of a hard 17. Pit boss (gaming manager) instructs dealer put ace next to shoe. Hand finished and I was given ace as first card. I sensed what was coming - decided to simply put out my normal bet. I think the courtesy on both parties paid off. Had an identical ruling on same game with card in question being a 10.