Sweet 16 Question

[Night_Rider]

Tthree and others: Thanks for the reply posts. Since I am working toward using the HI/Lo Strategy I will get Stanford Wong's book as you have suggested. I will also incorporate insurance into my studies promptly. I have been using an evaluation copy of Norm's software, for the Flash Card Drills, for a few days now. I have it configured for the Hi/Lo Strategy and the Sweet 16 Index and I have been using random counts in the drills. I switch back and fourth between using 'hands with indexes and default hands.' This is because I find it helpful, to concentrate only on the index plays sometimes, in my effort to commit the plays and indices to memory. I have been looking for a place in the set-up and option screens of the software for insurance. But I am not able to locate them. According to my understanding there are three insurance decisions in the Sweet Sixteen, but I am not seeing any insurance decisions come up. Maybe I am confused here and if anyone can help me get the right settings I would appreciate it. Perhaps the insurance decisions only come up during simulated game play? Please... additional information is needed here. If there is something in this post that does not make sense.... please ask. I will attempt to clarify.

Thanks

Night_Rider

[DSchles]

NOTHING in your post makes any sense! We keep telling you that, since you don't know the first thing about counting and haven't begun to learn to do it yet, using -- or even mentioning -- index numbers makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

Memorizing index numbers before you can count is like saying you're going to take up reading but you don't know the alphabet yet.

Don

[Exoter175]

Tthree and others: Thanks for the reply posts. Since I am working toward using the HI/Lo Strategy I will get Stanford Wong's book as you have suggested. I will also incorporate insurance into my studies promptly. I have been using an evaluation copy of Norm's software, for the Flash Card Drills, for a few days now. I have it configured for the Hi/Lo Strategy and the Sweet 16 Index and I have been using random counts in the drills. I switch back and fourth between using 'hands with indexes and default hands.' This is because I find it helpful, to concentrate only on the index plays sometimes, in my effort to commit the plays and indices to memory. I have been looking for a place in the set-up and option screens of the software for insurance. But I am not able to locate them. According to my understanding there are three insurance decisions in the Sweet Sixteen, but I am not seeing any insurance decisions come up. Maybe I am confused here and if anyone can help me get the right settings I would appreciate it. Perhaps the insurance decisions only come up during simulated game play? Please... additional information is needed here. If there is something in this post that does not make sense.... please ask. I will attempt to clarify.

Thanks

Night_Rider

In all honesty, I'd probably set this up in segments. You seem pretty motivated to learn, you probably just need proper guidance and an outlet for questions, which this forum is great at, but I feel that you might not learn as quickly doing it "all at once" like we'd all want to.

I"d break it down like this:

Segment 1: Learn Basic Strategy to a 99% accuracy for 1/2/4/6/8 deck games
Segment 2: Learn a counting system (you mentioned Hi/Lo, but might be missing finer points of the counting process)
Segment 3: Learn a betting spread, when to apply it vs. TC, decide on how large a spread works for you based on practice and sim models, and practice comfort in a live environment (This is the Segment I'm on right now)
Segment 4: Learn you indices, I18, S16, Insurance calls, etc. Learn them from the most profitable to the least, and from the "hardest" call to the easiest. Drill, Drill, Drill.

I feel after that, you're probably going to be set to hit the tables without much restraint, though I must add that you should be playing throughout all segments on small tables to accrue live experience, and you should keep track of your sessions and follow a few of the books on their accounting strategies as well as playing strategies.

Trust me, after a book or two, you won't have questions about TC>=3 insurance calls.

[metronome]

1. BASIC STRATEGY FIRST
2. Counting system, HiLo, KO,, REKO, TKO, Red Seven, Zen, etc.
3. Practice like hell then practice some more
4. Learn betting ramps and how it relates to the count.
5. Get some time in a real Casino environment, this is often overlooked.
6. Then start learning indices including and especially INSURANCE.

IMHO, Pro. Blackjack by Stanford Wong (HiLo) is a tougher read than Blackbelt in Blackjack (Red Seven) by Arnold Snydor, but I'm not of a math background.
Good cards

[Three]

But I am not able to locate them. According to my understanding there are three insurance decisions in the Sweet Sixteen, but I am not seeing any insurance decisions come up.

You are confused. there is one index for insurance for each count. It is the only linear thing in the game as each non-ten value card has the same effect of removal. Sorry, I am sure you don't understand that term yet.

Memorizing index numbers before you can count is like saying you're going to take up reading but you don't know the alphabet yet.

You can memorize the indices any time but you won't be able to use them until you can count.
You need to learn basic strategy so you know how to play hands when no index is exceeded to change the play.
You need to learn to count so you can vary your bets with the changing advantage and use the indices.
You need to learn the indices.

You can play without knowing the indices and using basic strategy and varying your bets with the count. You give up about 1/3rd of your potential gain at shoe games and about 2/3rds of the potential gain at single deck or double deck unless of course you manage to get away with a huge spread at the latter. But you can't use the indices if you can't count. There is nothing stopping you from learning them at any time though. If memorization is tough for you starting early isn't a bad idea. The order I listed above is the logical progression but it need not be you learn BS then you learn counting then you learn indices. You are best of not playing until you have them all down cold. I suggest using geometric shapes in the colorized Basic Strategy charts to help learn BS. BS is pretty logical other than maybe the soft doubles. You have dealer stiff upcards 2-6 which you generally play for the dealer busting and 7-A which you need to make a hand. Hard doubles are pretty logical. Splits are pretty logical. Surrender is only a few plays that are the worst matchups you can get. Assuming the dealer has a T in the hole makes BS pretty routine except for a few exceptions.

The way I look at it it takes you X days to learn BS, Y days to learn to count and Z days to learn the indices. These variables are different for everyone. If you study BS until you have it down, then counting until you have it down and then indices until you have it down it will take X+Y+Z days. If you study more than one thing a day by switching when you need a break to keep your time the most productive you will shave some days off that time. Why wouldn't you want to do that?

[Three]

I always carry a deck of cards with me. When I hit a slow part of the day with nothing to do I count it down over and over again. I may be in a doctors waiting room. Waiting for an appointment to show up. Waiting for stuff to download on the computer or are on hold on the phone (or not listening to someone ramble on endlessly about something that is not interesting). Stuck in a traffic jam that isn't moving. You get the idea. I could list on and on. The goal as to what to get down first is the logical progression of segments but getting done an easier one first is fine. Just have the main focus follow the logical progression.

[metronome]

Tthree, I can just see your fellow patients in that waiting room

[Three]

Nobody ever even asks me what I am doing.

[Night_Rider]

Thanks to all for the replies. Don, all I can say is I have been trying to follow along and do what the books I have instruct me to do. I plan to get different books. Up until my first post here on this forum I had virtually no out side contact with anyone that plays BJ. Even the instructional material that I saw on line was structured the same way. I am sorry for that but I just didn't know any better... but yes, ultimately I am responsible for my own education. I will promptly forget about learning any indices for now and start working on learning card counting. I did mess around with card counting, a couple of weeks ago, just to see what it was like. But, I was also working on learning basic strategy, at the same time, and found it difficult to maintain the count in my head while trying to recall strategy. That was before I found Norm's software so I was dealing myself hands. I just thought that if I could get basic strategy better set in my mind that it would be easier to deal with counting. Anyway, I THOUGHT I was doing good.

Night_Rider

[Exoter175]

Thanks to all for the replies. Don, all I can say is I have been trying to follow along and do what the books I have instruct me to do. I plan to get different books. Up until my first post here on this forum I had virtually no out side contact with anyone that plays BJ. Even the instructional material that I saw on line was structured the same way. I am sorry for that but I just didn't know any better... but yes, ultimately I am responsible for my own education. I will promptly forget about learning any indices for now and start working on learning card counting. I did mess around with card counting, a couple of weeks ago, just to see what it was like. But, I was also working on learning basic strategy, at the same time, and found it difficult to maintain the count in my head while trying to recall strategy. That was before I found Norm's software so I was dealing myself hands. I just thought that if I could get basic strategy better set in my mind that it would be easier to deal with counting. Anyway, I THOUGHT I was doing good.

Night_Rider

That part right there I found notable enough to comment, as you'll probably read in others thread if you haven't already, we've been discussing table buy ins and actions of ploppys, where myself and a few individuals keep bouncing experiences, ideas, and whatnot off each other. I've decided to take an extra step in my educational learning curve, and am trying to push my sociable limits while counting and maintaining strategy, while drilling execution on betting ramps. I'm trying to achieve this because I believe there's another side of the "cover/camo" coin that few individuals could take advantage of, and I feel I'm one of those guys. I bring this up because there is truly an optional 5th segment in my post earlier, and that part is about flying under the radar, camouflage, rat holing chips, and staying hidden from nosy PBs and EITS. Its an extra step that once you master the first 4 segments, will become something you'll want to learn. Considering my position at my "home" casino being a well known VIP type, I can't really afford to make a switch into a quiet under the radar type, as I feel that'll give my switch and sudden increased earnings away, so I'm trying to maintain said cover while remaining sociable.

So let that just sit in the back of your mind for a bit while you learn and practice and gain your experience, that eventually you'll more likely than not need to look into covers. Its still a bit ahead of you, but you'll want to maybe keep it on the back burner.

[metronome]

And Night_Rider, welcome aboard!

[Night_Rider]

Well, to me it does not matter in what order the material is learned as long as it IS learned. But, I am not so rigid that I can't make changes in what I am doing. I TRY to have an open mind.

So when learning to count cards is it better to learn the whole process in one chunk or is it better to break it down into parts... should I concentrate on mastering running count first, then learn to estimate remaining decks and then incorporate the calculation for true count? I hope this make sense.

Night_Rider

[muffdiver]

Well, to me it does not matter in what order the material is learned as long as it IS learned. But, I am not so rigid that I can't make changes in what I am doing. I TRY to have an open mind.

So when learning to count cards is it better to learn the whole process in one chunk or is it better to break it down into parts... should I concentrate on mastering running count first, then learn to estimate remaining decks and then incorporate the calculation for true count? I hope this make sense.

Night_Rider

If your eyesight and math are okay the TC conversion is easy.