Can ASMs be rigged to advantage the house?

[biggg]

I ran incredibly bad at an ASM casino to the point that I won't play there. Do I think it's rigged, absolutely not. I just got tired of losing there. The amusing thing is that over the same time I won more playing online bj for bonuses even after subtracting bonuses than counting playing an aggressive style and my avg bet was lower online. The runs in this game are ridiculous.

I actually thought there could be a clumping effect for a while. Once I did some basic sims and realized that a 2 percent clumping effect (eg t more likely to come after t by 2%) could be crushed by very simplistic strategies I realized this was probably very unlikely.

[biggg]

By the way it is absolutely possible for these machines to rig the game. I don't doubt at all that this has occurred, even in regulated jurisdictions such as LV. Think of the possibilities, you could set up the machine to dump to your confederate one day then cheat the next to normalize the hold. If you are smart you could do it in a way that it would be very difficult to be caught unlike card mechanics that could be spotted on video.

[Aslan]

Casinos would never be caught if thry know not to go overboard. And I'm sure many casinos do it. I actually will not be playing many ASMs in the future. But then again if one is paranoid so much about ASMs, who knows if hand shuffles are even legit either? They show the cards in front of you, sure, but its not like u can check every single card to see if its been stacked favorly for the house. I've always been skeptical, but I just play and just hope that the Gaming Board is strict on the issue and does casual checkups to keep the casinos honest and not let then risk such an action with so much to lose if caught. But then again what if the Gaming Board is in on this too? Can thry be trusted?

I just came off a very long session of blackjack. around 90% pen since they deal past the 87.5% cutcard to finish the last round, that was entirely hand shuffled. I can attest that the very nature of the game of blackjack is that the shoe "seems" to be stacked favorably for the house. And it is stacked, but in a natural way, due to the house advantage. The occurrences of dealer advantage "seem" unreal. In one shoe, the dealer actually had 20 or 21 every hand but one, the only hand I won. If it doesn't "appear" that the shoe is stacked, you haven't been playing blackjack long IMO. I have come to expect the dealer to draw a 21 against my pitiful 19 or 20, and when he doesn't I breathe a sigh of relief. It's the nature of the d*$m game! But I don't believe for a minute that the house did anything to cheat me, other than give themselves a half percent advantage. If you play long sessions, as I sometimes do, you will see long stretches where the dealer always has an upcard of 10, or if he has a 5 or 6, there is always a 6 or 5 in the hole to compliment it. Just ponder the fact that in order to beat the house, you are required to bet up to 10 or 15 times your minimum bet in plus counts just to swing the odds a tiny percentage in your favor. Sometimes you will swear that it's the dealer who has the advantage in plus counts, because that's the way it often goes when you're dealing with a very small percentage in your favor.

[muffdiver]

Good post, Aslan. It's so true and it really illustrates why it's very difficult to obtain anything over 1% edge in a straight counting game. Even a 1/2% edge.

[bjarg]

By the way it is absolutely possible for these machines to rig the game.

I'm amazed at how supposedly smart people can speak so lightly about thing they dont have a clue about.Could you please tell us how it is you came to the conclusion that it is ABSOLUTELY possible for this machine to rig the game?Have you ever seen one of the machines outside a casino?Have you ever handled one of them? Played with it? Opened it to see what its inside?Since you are absolutely positive, can you please educate us as to HOW exactly would a casino go about rigging the machine to cheat?Please, be specific, because I see everyone posting "oh yes they can cheat", but nobody seems to be able to explain HOW they can cheat.And dont tell us the machines can read the cards or post a link to a patent... please, give us specifics.By the way, could you tell me what the button thats on the bottom of the machine is for?The one thats next to that 9 digit number thats hard to press.You seem to know so much about the machines that Im sure you can tell me what it is for.

[ZenKinG]

I'm amazed at how supposedly smart people can speak so lightly about thing they dont have a clue about.Could you please tell us how it is you came to the conclusion that it is ABSOLUTELY possible for this machine to rig the game?Have you ever seen one of the machines outside a casino?Have you ever handled one of them? Played with it? Opened it to see what its inside?Since you are absolutely positive, can you please educate us as to HOW exactly would a casino go about rigging the machine to cheat?Please, be specific, because I see everyone posting "oh yes they can cheat", but nobody seems to be able to explain HOW they can cheat.And dont tell us the machines can read the cards or post a link to a patent... please, give us specifics.By the way, could you tell me what the button thats on the bottom of the machine is for?The one thats next to that 9 digit number thats hard to press.You seem to know so much about the machines that Im sure you can tell me what it is for.

And please go ahead also and tell us why you think its not rigged or why you would think they would never once rig it? Anything is possible if they want to do it. To thinn they will never rig It is ignorant, more like stupid.

[ZenKinG]

I just came off a very long session of blackjack. around 90% pen since they deal past the 87.5% cutcard to finish the last round, that was entirely hand shuffled. I can attest that the very nature of the game of blackjack is that the shoe "seems" to be stacked favorably for the house. And it is stacked, but in a natural way, due to the house advantage. The occurrences of dealer advantage "seem" unreal. In one shoe, the dealer actually had 20 or 21 every hand but one, the only hand I won. If it doesn't "appear" that the shoe is stacked, you haven't been playing blackjack long IMO. I have come to expect the dealer to draw a 21 against my pitiful 19 or 20, and when he doesn't I breathe a sigh of relief. It's the nature of the d*$m game! But I don't believe for a minute that the house did anything to cheat me, other than give themselves a half percent advantage. If you play long sessions, as I sometimes do, you will see long stretches where the dealer always has an upcard of 10, or if he has a 5 or 6, there is always a 6 or 5 in the hole to compliment it. Just ponder the fact that in order to beat the house, you are required to bet up to 10 or 15 times your minimum bet in plus counts just to swing the odds a tiny percentage in your favor. Sometimes you will swear that it's the dealer who has the advantage in plus counts, because that's the way it often goes when you're dealing with a very small percentage in your favor.

10 to 15 times my minimum bet? LOL glad I let CVCX tell me how much I can actually win and not rely on others inormation. You can beat a 6-8 deck game play all with a 1-4 spread if you wanted, the problem is it would be not worthwhile. But nonetheless you can beat a 6-8 deck game with a worthwhile return by wonging in and out with a 1-4. So I don't know where you get your numbers from. Even if you're talking about using a play all approach from beginning of shoe and wanted to make a worthwhile return, you still don't need to apread to 15 times your minimum be. 1-8 would be decent for example. Depends how much you want to make

[bjarg]

And please go ahead also and tell us why you think its not rigged or why you would think they would never once rig it? Anything is possible if they want to do it. To thinn they will never rig It is ignorant, more like stupid.

Ok.

1) I own 6 Shufflemaster machines: 1 deck mate, 2 MD3 and 3 one2six.
2) I personally know many of Bally's top executives and know first hand the way they handle their business.
3) I know 100% what the machines can and cannot do from an operational standpoint.
4) I know the security measures Bally takes so the machines cannot be messed with (which are not limited to technological measures).
5) I personally know casino executives who have signed contracts with Bally, that use their machines and that can tell me EXACTLY what they can and cannot do with them.

By the way, the fact that YOU of all people is calling me ignorant and stupid is actually pretty funny.
I know more of any of this machines than you and most people here will ever know.
The fact that NOBODY is being able to give specifics as to how a casino would rig a machine to cheat should be proof enough that nobody here knows what they are talking about.
If you want to make ignorant assumptions thats fine, but at least be clear as to what it is you are doing so you dont confuse other people reading.

EDIT: I forgot one little detail... I have OEM Manuals for ALL of those machines.

[Norm]

Guys, take it down a few notches.

[ahjooma]

[QUOTE=bjarg;131586]Ok.

1) I own 6 Shufflemaster machines: 1 deck mate, 2 MD3 and 3 one2six.

Just curious, why do you own so many?
Is it for training players or something?

[moses]

Ok.

1) I own 6 Shufflemaster machines: 1 deck mate, 2 MD3 and 3 one2six.
2) I personally know many of Bally's top executives and know first hand the way they handle their business.
3) I know 100% what the machines can and cannot do from an operational standpoint.

Bjarg. Thanks for clearing up some, perhaps, misguided voodoo. Personally, I prefer to play against a hand shuffle. An SD game doesn't seem to change up much with a hand shuffle - which can be good or bad. Since you own and have a great deal of experience with the machines, could it be the cards are getting shuffled more (than by hand)? Every game seems to be extremly different with machine - meaning one deck will be superiorly positive and the next deck that comes out is negative in the opposite direction. Seems there is several more negative decks than positive. Like I say, could be voodoo, but it's enough to make me choose to avoid them.

[Rudy]

Ok.

1) I own 6 Shufflemaster machines: 1 deck mate, 2 MD3 and 3 one2six.
2) I personally know many of Bally's top executives and know first hand the way they handle their business.
3) I know 100% what the machines can and cannot do from an operational standpoint.
4) I know the security measures Bally takes so the machines cannot be messed with (which are not limited to technological measures).
5) I personally know casino executives who have signed contracts with Bally, that use their machines and that can tell me EXACTLY what they can and cannot do with them.

By the way, the fact that YOU of all people is calling me ignorant and stupid is actually pretty funny.
I know more of any of this machines than you and most people here will ever know.
The fact that NOBODY is being able to give specifics as to how a casino would rig a machine to cheat should be proof enough that nobody here knows what they are talking about.
If you want to make ignorant assumptions thats fine, but at least be clear as to what it is you are doing so you dont confuse other people reading.

EDIT: I forgot one little detail... I have OEM Manuals for ALL of those machines.

They just going to ignore what you said. In my case I'd rather not discuss with someone expert in the field of shuffle like Bjarg.

I had the opportunity to have a few of those machines in front of me and see how it works and there is nothing strange about the system function. Actually, I'm a full time player, I play almost 90% of the time against ASM's so, I know what Bjarg are talkin about.

But I find it humorous that several regular posters here, whom bothers them that other people enter to the forum to talk or ask about voodoo facts, these regular posters, who are "supposed" to be smart and spend time talking about math every day, still believing those weird facts. You should try or buy one of these machines, and you will see.

Several casinos around the world that use ASM's and have a bad day with these machines, they quickly change to hand shuffle. You can ask a pit about it. Just think about it...

I am eagerly waiting to see this post in the disadvantage forum, right Norm?

[bjarg]

Just curious, why do you own so many?Is it for training players or something?

Nope.The machines are not actually mine, but have had them for some time now, courtesy of a friend and an associate of mine.I asked for them to study them.