Can ASMs be rigged to advantage the house?

[Three]

I doubt the gaming commission even checks up regularly or at all. And what are they going to accuse the casino of? Clumping?

The casino will be charged with using a device to alter the odds of the game and will be fined hundreds of thousands of dollars per incident. How the state in desperate need of revenue would define an incident is an unknown. Every round dealt. Every shoe played or every players hand cheated by the casino. The fine could be billions of dollars. I guess the casino would be anxious to settle and it would not be in the commissions best interest to bankrupt the casino. Tens of millions of dollars sounds about right.

ShuffleMaster will lose all integrity and confidence by gamblers that playing at their machine would be a fair game. ShuffleMaster would lose all its ASM and CSM revenue. Their product may be banned from use in any casino as a cheating device. Why do you think any of these corporations would risk anything/everything to increase a small portion of their revenue a little?

[RobinHood21]

PS: For those who know Bally you should know Bry is reading this thread and LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF at the idiocy of some of the posters here.

I know Bally's. I don't know Bry because I didn't deal with purchasing supplies. And if you read my introduction thread you will see that I have a lot of experience with ASM's. The only thing that Casino personnel can change on the machines is how many decks are to be shuffled. The next time everyone plays you will notice that most of the machines being used are almost the same. Usually the only difference would be if the game being played is a carnival game, single deck bj, or multi-deck bj/baccarat. Oh ya... the only time the machines are even opened by personnel is when they malfunction (are too dusty usually), cards jams, and loading/unloading of cards. Other then that, SFFLmaster are the only people that ever work on the machines. And they routinely maintain them depending on the size of the casino and volume of customer play. When I say maintain, that includes checking what I would say is calibration. To make sure that the machines are properly shuffling.

And another note. The posts "that a certain sequence of cards can be programmed" or whatever, it would be my opinion that this could easily be switched to provide an advantage to the player. Now.. next time you go to Las Vegas or wherever everyone is playing ask the floor or even a shift manager how much money they make??? Because if they had any access to any type of sequencing there would be many cases against shady floor or mgrs for cheating to benefit themselves and not the casino they work for.

[bjarg]

the casino will be charged with using a device to alter the odds of the game and will be fined hundreds of thousands of dollars per incident. How the state in desperate need of revenue would define an incident is an unknown. Every round dealt. Every shoe played or every players hand cheated by the casino. The fine could be billions of dollars. I guess the casino would be anxious to settle and it would not be in the commissions best interest to bankrupt the casino. Tens of millions of dollars sounds about right.

Shufflemaster will lose all integrity and confidence by gamblers that playing at their machine would be a fair game. Shufflemaster would lose all its asm and csm revenue. Their product may be banned from use in any casino as a cheating device. Why do you think any of these corporations would risk anything/everything to increase a small portion of their revenue a little?

thankkkkkkkkk youuuuuuuu!!!!!!
Finally somebody said it!

[bjarg]

You obviously refuse to read the patent so there's no sense in trying to reason with you.
Why do you refuse to read it?

Ok, I've had enough with you.
I feel Im Einstein trying to discuss the theory of relativity with a 5 year old.
Now dont get me wrong... im not comparing myself to Einstein. Im a lot smarter than he was.

EDIT: I take it back. I think I will take pleasure in making you look like an idiot.

Please, can you copy and paste the part of the patent that makes you think the machines can be rigged to cheat?

[RobinHood21]

I'd like to take this time to explain to people that most of the Casino personnel that AP's interact with, deep down inside aren't happy with their jobs. The dealers, the floor, and even sometimes the shift managers don't make lavish incomes, so a lot of time they really enjoy and are happy to see nice, genuine players win. Day in and day out , they come to work and see losers. It's absolutely hilarious that so many people on here spend time talking about how much heat they receive from the floors or dealers. Neither one will ever receive a monetary bonus for catching AP's. At most they will get a pat on the back and a "good job". They don't want to catch an AP for a pat on the back. They come to work just to grind their jobs and collect a paycheck every two weeks. A lot of people here truly believe that this is like a cat and mouse game between AP's and the Casino. It doesn't have to be. The only thing most Casinos are good at is smelling fear. Heat makes most wannabe AP's nervous. Now think in their heads... "Why would a gambler be nervous?" or "sweaty"?

[ahjooma]

I'd like to take this time to explain to people that most of the Casino personnel that AP's interact with, deep down inside aren't happy with their jobs. The dealers, the floor, and even sometimes the shift managers don't make lavish incomes, so a lot of time they really enjoy and are happy to see nice, genuine players win. Day in and day out , they come to work and see losers. It's absolutely hilarious that so many people on here spend time talking about how much heat they receive from the floors or dealers. Neither one will ever receive a monetary bonus for catching AP's. At most they will get a pat on the back and a "good job". They don't want to catch an AP for a pat on the back. They come to work just to grind their jobs and collect a paycheck every two weeks. A lot of people here truly believe that this is like a cat and mouse game between AP's and the Casino. It doesn't have to be. The only thing most Casinos are good at is smelling fear. Heat makes most wannabe AP's nervous. Now think in their heads... "Why would a gambler be nervous?" or "sweaty"?

Some seem very nice but some seem to work extra hard to "catch" people and take
enjoyment giving sometimes clueless people the boot. Are some pit bosses under a lot of pressure
to do this or do they just enjoy it? How much is their bottom line affected by counters now?
there seem to be a lot of counter measures and paranoia. There must be a reason.

[RS]

Something that caught my eye:

"
The user then selects 138 (FIG. 7) the sequence. With the preferred embodiment 20, there are four predetermined sequences from which to choose. The first is a shuffle having a random sequence, which is chosen by pressing an input switch 130 (marked “shuffle” in FIG. 1b). The second is to sort the plurality cards 22 into the sequence of a standard “new” deck of cards. This choice can be made by pressing the input switch 132 a as shown in the control panel 102 in FIG. 1b. The third is to sort the plurality into the game play sequence such as that required by poker, which (as described above) is spades, hearts, clubs, and diamonds. This choice can be made by pressing the input switch 132 b as shown in FIG. 1. At least a fourth user defined choice is provided by input switch 132 c. It is anticipated that any number of user defined sequences could be provided by storing such sequences in memory 118, and providing appropriate input means such as input switch 132 c for the user to select such sequences. Discrete switches could be provided for each choice, as shown by switches 130, 132 a, 132 b, and 132 c shown in FIG. 1, or a toggle (four position) switch such as switch 128, or an alpha-numeric keypad could also be used. Regardless of the specific input means, the microprocessor 112 receives the selected type of predetermined sequence through the input buffer 114. It is to be understood that an automatic sorter, under the teachings of the present invention, could be designed for only one sequence (e.g., shuffle or new sort) thereby eliminating the switches and associated control.
"

I don't know entirely what that means, but based on what was said before the bold....sorting the cards (ie clumping) looks a little bit more possible.

[muffdiver]

Ok, I've had enough with you.
I feel Im Einstein trying to discuss the theory of relativity with a 5 year old.
Now dont get me wrong... im not comparing myself to Einstein. Im a lot smarter than he was.

EDIT: I take it back. I think I will take pleasure in making you look like an idiot.

Please, can you copy and paste the part of the patent that makes you think the machines can be rigged to cheat?

There's no need to cut and paste anything. Google US patent #6250632. It's THAT easy!

[SURFER]

Lol csm no! Asm yes its that easy!

[Freightman]

1. At least a fourth user defined choice is provided by input switch 132 c. It is anticipated that any number of user defined sequences could be provided by storing such sequences in memory 118, and providing appropriate input means such as input switch 132 c for the user to select such sequences. Discrete switches could be provided for each choice, as shown by switches 130, 132 a, 132 b, and 132 c shown in FIG. 1, or a toggle (four position) switch such as switch 128, or an alpha-numeric keypad could also be used. Regardless of the specific input means, the microprocessor 112 receives the selected type of predetermined sequence through the input buffer 114. It is to be understood that an automatic sorter, under the teachings of the present invention, could be designed for only one sequence (e.g., shuffle or new sort) thereby eliminating the switches and associated control.
"

I don't know entirely what that means, but based on what was said before the bold....sorting the cards (ie clumping) looks a little bit more possible.

It means you should be scared shitless - in my view - not an issue at this time - but could easily become one

[Aslan]

There's no need to cut and paste anything. Google US patent #6250632. It's THAT easy!

This device seems from a fast read to be one that places the cards in a predetermined, yet so-called random order (I suppose akin to a table of random numbers). I wonder if any such device has been approved for use in a casino anywhere, because it could surely be a way to put cards in an order that would be beneficial to the house and not the player, as in a "cold" deck, and there is virtually no way to detect such a device except by running computerized tests on its output order. We know that a shoe can be arranged where one or two people cannot possibly win no matter how they play there hands; that's in Grosjean's book among others. Whether a shoe can be arranged to favor the house over multiple players is unknown, but a computer could be used to make this analysis. Also, since the technology exists, it is feasible that a legitimate machine could be altered to achieve the same result, but it seems a bit far-fetched to me. Still, the technology in the patent seems proof that someone is considering such a machine and palming it off, rightly or wrongly, as a random shuffle machine. We do know that if clumps of high and low cards are eliminated from the shoe, card counting is rendered useless. The only way a player could detect such a situation is if he never sees runs of high or low cards consistently over long periods of time. It's an intriguing thought, and if the mob of olden days were still running casinos, I'd be fearful every time I played in one of their casinos. But in today's gaming environment, the only way I see such a device being implemented is if the gaming commission bought off on the fact that the cards were "randomly shuffled", though predetermined, as the manufacturer claims. I think the commission would have to have rocks in its head to do such a thing, but I have seen dumber things in government, not to get into politics please.

[BJGenius007]

This device seems from a fast read to be one that places the cards in a predetermined, yet so-called random order (I suppose akin to a table of random numbers). I wonder if any such device has been approved for use in a casino anywhere, because it could surely be a way to put cards in an order that would be beneficial to the house and not the player, as in a "cold" deck, and there is virtually no way to detect such a device except by running computerized tests on its output order. We know that a shoe can be arranged where one or two people cannot possibly win no matter how they play there hands; that's in Grosjean's book among others. Whether a shoe can be arranged to favor the house over multiple players is unknown, but a computer could be used to make this analysis. Also, since the technology exists, it is feasible that a legitimate machine could be altered to achieve the same result, but it seems a bit far-fetched to me. Still, the technology in the patent seems proof that someone is considering such a machine and palming it off, rightly or wrongly, as a random shuffle machine. We do know that if clumps of high and low cards are eliminated from the shoe, card counting is rendered useless. The only way a player could detect such a situation is if he never sees runs of high or low cards consistently over long periods of time. It's an intriguing thought, and if the mob of olden days were still running casinos, I'd be fearful every time I played in one of their casinos. But in today's gaming environment, the only way I see such a device being implemented is if the gaming commission bought off on the fact that the cards were "randomly shuffled", though predetermined, as the manufacturer claims. I think the commission would have to have rocks in its head to do such a thing, but I have seen dumber things in government, not to get into politics please.

I have sat on the first base and taken a peek on the operation of ASM. Saw a light like price scanner used in Target or Wal-Mart to scan bar code for price checking. I determined ASM can see if a card is an ace or ten. Then considering this algorithm to move all cards in left chamber to the empty right chamber using gravity:

1. Push a card half way, if it is a small card, push it from left chamber to right chamber. Do this step until there is 26 cards in the bottom of the right chamber. Step 1 is now complete. There are 26 cards, all small, in the bottom. ASM can go even further, to make it consists of five clump, six clump, seven clump and eight clump.

2. Push a card half way through to scan the bar code or use image processing technology. If it is a face card, push it though to the right chamber. Do this three times. Then push the next card through no matter what. We will have a three or four face cards clump depending on if the fourth card is face card. Repeat this seven times. Now we have half deck highly concentrating on tens.

3. For the next three decks, if a card to be push from left chamber to right chamber is a face card, there is a pre-determined possibility that it will trigger a face card clump. Basically, the ASM will push a card half way to see if it is a face card, push back if it is not, push through if it it. Repeat this a few times, to create a face cards clump.

4. Now the four deck left in the left chamber is face card poor because ASM extracted additional face cards in the previous steps. ASM just push card by card randomly from left chamber to right chamber.

5. In the end of the shuffle, ASM can do a special maneuver that move any cards in the bottom of the shoe to the top. Note it preserves the sequence it created. The purpose is that the player won't know where the highly face card rich half deck followed by the highly small cards rich half deck is located. (Funny thing is that I once saw pit boss opened an ASM machine and discovered four decks of cards collapsed on top of the perfectly shuffled four decks. It can happen only if someone or some machine tries to move four decks at once but lose the grab.)

For this randomized 8 deck shoe, you can't beat the casino no matter where you cut it, even given 85% penetration. Assuming ASM did not perform the step 5 maneuver. The best cut is 7 decks deep. The TC will plunge in the first half deck then rising. Basically the players will flat bet because of negative TC. The worst cut is 7.5 decks deep. The TC will be very positive initially then keep rising for the next 6 decks till the end of the shoe. But most face cards are hiding behind the yellow card.

[Three]

Genius if you know the order you should be killing the game. The T value cards will come out in a predetermined order. You would know if you were getting a T on your stiff and stand. You would know when you are getting a T to double. You would know how likely the dealer is to have a T in the hole. It would wither be 100% or a chance much lower than the normal expectation. You could sit out or add a hand to manipulate the order of the cards. If you can't crush a game with that info something is wrong. Spend some time making records of the cards in evil mode and your records will either disprove your theory or give you a winning blueprint. When the "random" order is known for baccarat pre-shuffled shoes the players win millions in a shoe. Of course you can't bet on the dealer like in baccarat but you can use the information to shape your bets (0 to whatever you deem best) and number of hands (0, 1, 2 or more if possible) to win most hands that you choose to play unlike with counting. You know when the Floor puts the machine in evil mode then stand up and get out the pen and paper get the blueprint to make more money than you ever thought possible.