How much does surrender worth to a card counter

[seriousplayer]

Does anyone know how much does surrendering worth to a card counter using 1-8 bet spread and leave negative counts TC<= -1 for 6 and 8 deck games? With the rules S17, DAS, LS 1.5 penetration for both 6 and 8 deck games. Assuming the AP is deviating from basic strategy according to the count. Could CVDATA simulate this? If so how could it be done.

Note: I am aware that surrender in a 6 and 8 deck game is worth about .06-.08% to a basic strategy player with S17 rule but not to a card counter.

[DSchles]

The summary charts in chapter 10 of BJA3 give this kind of information. LS is worth about 33-45% more than just S17, DAS.

Don

[seriousplayer]

The summary charts in chapter 10 of BJA3 give this kind of information. LS is worth about 33-45% more than just S17, DAS.

Don

Thank You. I will take a look at that. Interested on how you simulated it? I couldn't figure out how to do this in CVDATA.

[seriousplayer]

All I see in chapter 10 summary chart were SCORE, TC frequency, EV, Bet Spread, and Standard deviation. I don't see how much surrender is worth to card counter.

[Three]

Did you look at pages 232-3? They give enough info to calculate what LS is worth but neither exactly fit your wong out style of play. Back-counting eliminates your waiting bets and play-all plays through those larger negative counts. They do provide outer boundaries that your game will fall between.

[Skull]

Thank You. I will take a look at that. Interested on how you simulated it? I couldn't figure out how to do this in CVDATA.

What exactly was your problem simulating it? That shouldn't be hard assuming you know how to use CVData. If that's not the case, then yes, there are a lot of small details to set up.

I did a quick run here assuming High-Low with Illustrious 18 and Fab 4, optimal 1-8 bet ramp with 1 Kelly bets.

No Surrender: SCORE 19,43; IBA% 1,029

Late Surrender: SCORE 30,09; IBA% 1,213

So, in terms of advantage per se, around 18% increase.

But in terms of SCORE, you get around 55% increase!

Hope it helped.

Best!

[stopgambling]

So it's a approx. .2% increase in advantage for us ( not ploppies ) in general .Correct?

[Skull]

So it's a approx. .2% increase in advantage for us ( not ploppies ) in general .Correct?

Correct.
But I don't think I can include myself in your "not ploppy" category yet, unfortunately....

[seriousplayer]

What exactly was your problem simulating it? That shouldn't be hard assuming you know how to use CVData. If that's not the case, then yes, there are a lot of small details to set up.

I did a quick run here assuming High-Low with Illustrious 18 and Fab 4, optimal 1-8 bet ramp with 1 Kelly bets.

No Surrender: SCORE 19,43; IBA% 1,029

Late Surrender: SCORE 30,09; IBA% 1,213

So, in terms of advantage per se, around 18% increase.

But in terms of SCORE, you get around 55% increase!

Hope it helped.

Best!

Thank you for the simulations. Was wongout at TC<= -1 included in your simulations? If so the SCORE seem low for a surrender game using 1-8 bet spread. I was guessing the SCORE will be in the high 50s with S17 DAS LS 1.5 penetration with 1-8 bet spread.

[Ouchez]

This is funny, I used to play a ton of DD, LS, S-17, D-10-11, no das, you could DD on BJ or soft 21, and the pen averaged 85%,,(min bet$5 to $200), switch from 1 to 2 spots at will, and many players PO-PO'd it as a good game over the no das, d-10-11. Funny thing that game is still offered and if allowed would still be playing it today, and when they are not looking still will. I think LS is one of the best options out there for an AP, that is why it is getting so hard to find.

[Skull]

Thank you for the simulations. Was wongout at TC<= -1 included in your simulations? If so the SCORE seem low for a surrender game using 1-8 bet spread. I was guessing the SCORE will be in the high 50s with S17 DAS LS 1.5 penetration with 1-8 bet spread.

Yes, it was included. You play around 50% of the hands you see.

SPsim.jpg

[metronome]

This is funny, I used to play a ton of DD, LS, S-17, D-10-11, no das, you could DD on BJ or soft 21, and the pen averaged 85%,,(min bet$5 to $200), switch from 1 to 2 spots at will, and many players PO-PO'd it as a good game over the no das, d-10-11. Funny thing that game is still offered and if allowed would still be playing it today, and when they are not looking still will. I think LS is one of the best options out there for an AP, that is why it is getting so hard to find.

I'd fall out if I ever got to see 85% with LS at DD.

[Three]

So it's a approx. .2% increase in advantage for us ( not ploppies ) in general .Correct?

It depends on your spread. the more you spread the more LS becomes worth. The figures he quoted were for 1-8 spread.