Introduction

[C'estLaEV]

Hello all, just joined this site per recommendation from a buddy I made in a failing oceanside casino town earlier this week.

I started playing 3 years ago and got serious about our craft roughly 6 months ago while, ironically enough, training to be a dealer. Since then I've spent countless hours studying, practicing, ok.. obsessing.. over this wonderful game that we all love (most of the time).

Which brings me to my last trip..

H17 no surrender, using Hi Opt 1 no side count spreading 1-20 $10 tables 1-8ish $25 tables, playing a shoe or two and then moving on to my next stop. I'm trying to think in units but I'm new to this style of thinking/writing so bare with me. $10 units. (brought $3000 with me)

Day 1: up 60 units, down 200 units, up 130 units for a total of -$100. Day 2: up 40 units, up 75 units, down 155 units, up 63 units for a grand trip total of a whopping +$130.

While I didn't expect to make a boatload of money given the rules I had to endure, is this normal to blow my entire profit hours before leaving? I can't be too distraught as I was still playing very +EV shoes to the best of my abilities, just sucks I put in all that work for basically nothing. I guess what I'm trying to ask is am I completely retarded for not leaving when I made 1/3 of my trip BR with less than stellar conditions? I'm quickly learning that you're never truly done learning when this is your hobby of choice, I just need to hear honest advice from an experienced player/s.

p.s. I keep reading about camo and I, like most others, worry about it a lot. I've found that the best thing to do is try to make peace with any dealer that's even half not miserable-borderline-suicidal. While there's no hope for some and you can't do much but put your head down, a lot of them just need a friend and a break from the typical flea. Coming from a dealer's point of view, if you're cool with me I could honestly give a sh*t what you bet or how you act as long as it's not tooo crazy that could get me in trouble for letting it happen. Just talk about anything other than the 'sh*tty cards'! Waitresses, local teams, events, etc. are all tried and true topics. Just some food for thought/discussion, thanks in advance for any constructive input.

[bmovers]

If pen is average to poor, and table is crowded, a $10 - $200 spread will barely earn you more than $10 / hr.

If you give in to the "quit while you're ahead" mentality you'll make a lot less in the long run. As many people say, it's all 1 big long session. Just keep at it. The more hours you play, the more $$ you'll make in the long run.

Striking up a convo with the dealer/other players is always a good idea. It's better than sitting there is silence staring at the cards. It makes suddenly jumping your bet a lot less awkward.

[Three]

The sentiment it is all one big session is often thrown around and sometimes misused. If you are playing great conditions your exit point should have nothing to do with your success or lack there of. Considerations like heat and longevity are reasonable exit considerations in great conditions.

You described horrible conditions that you should probably avoid anyway. If you show up at a casino and there is nothing good the best thing is to leave. If you want to take a shot for a shoe or two just to see if you get lucky there is nothing wrong with an exit strategy based on the fact that you did get lucky. Just don't leave an advantage count. That is really costly to EV. Playing crappy rules and crowded conditions is a recipe for disaster even with great pen. H17 is tough without LS. Your advantage opportunities won't get you as many rounds at a crowded table. Give them enough time and you are likely to give it back unless you are doing some serious wonging.

[ohbehave]

Coming from a dealer's point of view, if you're cool with me I could honestly give a sh*t what you bet or how you act as long as it's not tooo crazy that could get me in trouble for letting it happen. Just talk about anything other than the 'sh*tty cards'! Waitresses, local teams, events, etc. are all tried and true topics. Just some food for thought/discussion, thanks in advance for any constructive input.

Welcome C'estLaEV. Creative username btw. I like it.

What you mention here I think is important for APs to consider in relating to the dealer. Can you talk about what sorts of things that might draw undesirable attention to the dealer from the floorperson.

[C'estLaEV]

Thanks for the input guys, the $10/hr and 'one long session' things helped soften the blow from that trip. Which btw was mostly playing heads up/never full table.. wish I could say the same for last night.

I went to a more local spot, wonged in using Hi Opt 1 and ace side count to a full table at TC2.5 that kept climbing, playing two spots. Lost every bet from medium to max which was AFTER reading the replies I got on here about not playing full tables. Needless to say I'm a little ashamed of myself but more importantly, lesson learned. I need to do something about the leaks in my game.

ohbehave thanks for the welcome. I don't have a lot of information to share yet, but I know there were dealers who recently lost their jobs for not announcing 'checks play' or 'black action' when people were spreading ridiculously.. I don't know all the details but I imagine these have to be extreme cases like red to black, etc. Tables winning consistently attract attention, but then again the floor could just be bored and want to see some action. This is just speaking from grave shift perspective though, wish I had some input on this besides the obvious.

One last thing to note- I talk to my one floor about counting because she's cool and knows how, and she told me something valuable last night. She said that the majority of counters, cheaters, any unwelcomed play is usually spotted by dealers and told to the floor after they're tapped off the table. Most of it is just suspicion that 'something isn't right' but then the call is made to surveillance and checked. This is mostly just a weird vibe they get from a player, which makes engaging them that much more important. Oh and don't call the dealer, 'dealer'. (we hate that!)

[Three]

I went to a more local spot, wonged in using Hi Opt 1 and ace side count to a full table at TC2.5 that kept climbing, playing two spots. Lost every bet from medium to max which was AFTER reading the replies I got on here about not playing full tables. Needless to say I'm a little ashamed of myself but more importantly, lesson learned. I need to do something about the leaks in my game.

The same thing can happen at an uncrowded table. The difference is you would still have some plus rounds yet to play to dig out of the hole. You might lose all of those as well but more often the floating advantage helps as you get deeper into the shoe and you start a recovery. I wouldn't worry about wonging into a crowded table. You played two spots so it wasn't too bad. All bets made were advantage bets. Sure you were better off at an uncrowded table but to backcount you need at least 1 spot being played.

ohbehave thanks for the welcome. I don't have a lot of information to share yet, but I know there were dealers who recently lost their jobs for not announcing 'checks play' or 'black action' when people were spreading ridiculously..

The Floor has to track those chips primarily to thwart employee (dealer) theft. The dealers probably got the axe for suspected theft or not being willing to follow procedures, not making it hard to track play.

She said that the majority of counters, cheaters, any unwelcomed play is usually spotted by dealers and told to the floor after they're tapped off the table.

Tips can be helpful here. Dealers like to get tips and won't be as quick to say anything if you aren't a stiff.

[G Man]

C'estlaEV, are you french?

[C'estLaEV]

Nope not French I just overuse that phrase, especially when referring to my play at the tables lately..

[mrw464]

Negative variance can be a *****. Interesting that you utilize Hi Opt I, makes me think of a more nostalgic time.

[C'estLaEV]

Negative variance can be a *****. Interesting that you utilize Hi Opt I, makes me think of a more nostalgic time.

Negative variance is kicking my ass this year.. at least I think it's that.. almost at 3 losing months and I'm starting to question my abilities.

I'm still a beginner so I think Hi Opt 1 is good for now, I'm planning on moving to a higher level count once I see some results. Or do I have that backwards? And what system would you guys recommend to study next? Common sense tells me Hi Opt II but if there's something more effective I'm all ears.

[mrw464]

People have a lot of varying philosophies on which count to use. Some stand by Hi Lo, some prefer more powerful counts like Zen, some prefer more simplified counts like KO. Certain counts are better for certain scenarios (shoes vs pitch games).

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[KJ]

Negative variance is kicking my ass this year.. at least I think it's that.. almost at 3 losing months and I'm starting to question my abilities.

I'm still a beginner so I think Hi Opt 1 is good for now, I'm planning on moving to a higher level count once I see some results. Or do I have that backwards? And what system would you guys recommend to study next? Common sense tells me Hi Opt II but if there's something more effective I'm all ears.

Houston...we have a problem. Not going to kick this down the 'count debate path', we have more than enough threads on that, but I will say hi-opt1, with no side counts, meaning you are not accounting for the single most powerful card in the deck...the ace, is a poor choice for shoe games.

TWGBJB, was the very first blackjack book that I ever read, and even way back then, knowing next to nothing (many members think I haven't progressed too far), I thought that NOT accounting for the most important card in the deck was a problem.

[Three]

I went to a more local spot, wonged in using Hi Opt 1 and ace side count

Maybe you missed it KJ but buried in one post is the fact that he is side counting aces. I think later when he said no side counts he meant the middle cards were not side counted.

If you want to progress to a level 2 decide how you like having to side count aces. If it is easy HIOPT II would be the next logical step. If not Zen would be a nice level 2 ace reckoned count.