full set of indexes for hi-lo

[negEV]

hello... I was wondering if anyone could point me to or generate a full set of indexes for the game I am playing...

8d, DAS, H17, no surrender, A's get one card no resplit, dealer peaks... Hmmm are there are other elements I am forgetting?

And yes I know that's not a great game... but it's close to me and many dealers give insane pen. The most I've seen is 1.5d cut off which is their guideline.. But most dealers only cut off 1d and I've seen some do more like 0.75d - which makes for some interesting final hands of the shoe.

I've been playing the classic 18 indexes... But I know there are times when my gut tells me I am making the wrong plays because I don't know more indexes... Like doubling a 9 vs an 8. vs 7 it's +3... but what about vs 8? +7? Actually in that situation I'd have a max bet out and would probably play risk averse and give up my tiny bit of extra EV.

Any advice on risk aversion is welcome too... I'm a pretty low stakes player... I only play a ~2hrs a week on average.

I also also curious to opinions on BR management. (I need to read some books!) Like how much to bring with me at one time and what % of my trip BR should be my max bet... My max bet is usually around 10% of my trip BR. I am guessing 5% would be better - but I generally only play for an hour or so. My trip BR is maybe 30% of my entire BR. Should I be bringing my entire BR? I'd hate to bust out in a huge count. I almost did recently and was pretty upset with myself. I was playing too high stakes - I was with my sister and it was a Sat night. $20 min tables. I normally play $10. And I was spreading (stupidly) $20-150 on a $600 trip BR. I wasn't planning on playing any BJ that night but she talked me into it. Almost got wiped out when I had max bet out and got split double double... Won that hand and did the exact same thing 2 hands later and quickly cashed out up $775. From the brink of disaster to my biggest BJ win ever in the course of 3 minutes. It was stupid play for sure... I wasn't making mistakes in play but in BR management.

Also if it's not allowed or kosher to ask for someone to generate indexes for me feel free to delete this post... I don't want to cross any lines... I know I could spend some $ on Norm's awesome apps and generate this myself... but I am such a casual player I just don't think it's worth it for me. Money wise and time wise. I can memorize indexes while I am at work... but I can't install any software.

[Norm]

Frankly, increasing the accuracy of indices in an 8D game isn't particularly valuable.

[RS]

Just about choked when you said your max bet is 10% of your trip roll. Have at least 20 max bets on you. You definitely don't want to be in a situation where a few losing splits & double downs taps you out of the game when you still have an advantage. Or putting the last if your trip BR on the line, just to get a split or double and not be able to put up the funds for it.

With a small BR, either you're going to hit positive variance and be on a nice ride, or lose it. Chances are you'll lose it. Playing defensively will just increase that chance of failure.

Best case scenario is to get a proper BR.

[genini1]

If you want full indexes you should check out google. The difference between shoe games is almost negligible so your rules won't matter too much.

As for your other question I would agree with your needing to read some books. Learning indexes past the first 22 has a very marginal return. Learning how to properly manage a bankroll, size your bets, and risk assessment are far, far more valuable.

For your specific questions the answer is your max bet should never be based on your trip BR. Your max bet should be something you figure out at home based on how large a risk of ruin you are willing to accept. If you figure out you want a RoR that is spreading 10-160 then you should be playing that, and only that. From there you decide your trip bankroll. The normal minimum you should have is 10 max bets when you start a shoe. This is the absolute minimum in my mind. I keep at least 15 on me at all times. Remember that variance is the killer in this game and having a 1% edge means you are still quite likely to lose in the short term.

[Buddy_Cat]

Divide your total bankroll by 100 and make that your max bet... Better yet, divide it by 150.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[KJ]

Full set of indices (indexes <-) for 8 deck game? Doubling 9 vs 8?

Dare I say: You are chasing pennies, when you should be chasing dollars.

On an unrelated note: Why would you pick negEV for a handle?

[negEV]

Full set of indices (indexes <-) for 8 deck game? Doubling 9 vs 8?

I agreed an 8d game isn't ideal... but that's what is near me. Plus I am getting good pen. What is better 6d with a 2d cut off or 8d with a 1d cut off? Plus there are lots of tables and it's easy to wong out when the count goes south.

And I have never doubled a 9 vs 8. But I am sure there is some index were it would call for it... it was just an example.

On an unrelated note: Why would you pick negEV for a handle?

I remember someone using that name when I was in my poker days... or maybe there was a poker blog named that or something.

And since we are asking silly questions what's up with your use or so many emojis? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?

[KJ]

And since we are asking silly questions what's up with your use or so many emojis? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?

I was going to respond with a big WOW!, but norm removed the part I was really responding to, so I'll just say..."way to make new friends on a new site". Welcome anyway. (this is where I WOULD have put the welcome smiley)

[negEV]

Just about choked when you said your max bet is 10% of your trip roll. Have at least 20 max bets on you. You definitely don't want to be in a situation where a few losing splits & double downs taps you out of the game when you still have an advantage. Or putting the last if your trip BR on the line, just to get a split or double and not be able to put up the funds for it.

I agree... I will start bringing more $$$ with me. The occasion when I won $775 the thing I was most upset about was not being able to double that one hand for the full amount. My sister thought I was a nut.

But I've been rolling with my max bet being about 10% of my trip roll for a year now 81 trips... 104 hours of play... and I haven't busted out once... But I have quit after losing a few hundred a few times. But I've never left in the middle of a good count. The casino is close to me so if I lose 75% of my trip roll in 15min and have to go home... it's not the end of the world. I didn't drive hours or fly to vegas. I've also won hundreds in 20-30min and left.

My biggest fear about bringing more of a bankroll is losing my wallet or getting robbed. I guess I need to start keeping all the bankroll at home and only digging it out when going to the casino. And even if I bring $10,000 it doesn't mean I have to play $50-300 spreads... I can still play $10-50 or $10-75. And I can still set limits at how much I want to lose in a session. More BR just insures I won't have to stop playing when the count is +5 and I lose 10 max bets in a row.

I need to read up more on ROR too... I think I've been fairly lucky over my 100+ hours of play... but that doesn't mean I can't lose it all very quickly. I can replace the BR, but my GF hates me playing BJ and if I were to lose my entire current BR (about $3k) she would be very unhappy. Heck I would't be thrilled - but I understand if I am playing correctly it will eventually come back.

Anyone know what my expected EV should be?? 0.69 house edge... spreading $10-60 ($60 is probably my average top bet over the 100hrs) and playing 18 indexes?

I tried to figure it out once years ago and I thought it was VERY low... like $5-10/hr. I'm around $30/hr right now. There is NO WAY I should have won this much. And those numbers don't include comps like free table play coupons (which I don't get anymore!) and dealer mistakes. I am up another $500 on coupons and dealer mistakes. It seems like 100 hours would be a good data set... but obviously anything can happen. Long run is relative.

Another reason I wanted the full set of indexes for my rules is the classic 18 is for S17... BS for H17 says you are supposed double 11 v A. But the I18 index for 11vA is +1... I just wonder if any other indexes are incorrect for the rules I am playing.

Also thanks for all the replies. Even the snarky ones.

[KJ]

Also thanks for all the replies. Even the snarky ones.

Ya know, the 'snarky' reply, wasn't meant to be snarky.....you just chose to take it that way. (no smiley inserted)

I was trying to tell you that the game you are playing is difficult. You are dealing with a rather high IHA and 8 decks, which is problematic and so you need to think bigger to beat this game. The things you were mentioning were just adding pennies to your game. You need to be thinking about bigger things, like a much more aggressive spread (and probably ramp). Traditionally with multi-deck games, you need to think in terms of a minimum spread of 2x number of decks or in this case 1-16....minimum! (no smiley inserted)

You also have got to find a way to not play at least some of those negative counts, at least the worst of them. If you play all, with a small spread in such a game, you are playing little more than at break even game at best or possibly turning a very small profit, but dealing with very high variance to get that small profit.

Things like more index plays and higher level counts, just don't make very much difference in these types of mediocre to poor games. You have to think bigger to beat them. (no smiley inserted)

[Zach Black]

You should get CVCX and you could figure out the EV.

Play all EV is $5/100; Std Deviation $250/100 hands; N0= 227,000 (using sweet 16 indices)

Wong in at TC 1; EV $15/100 hands , N0=13,540

The probability of being up 3k in 100 hrs in this game is 18% for wonging.

No way should you play all in a 8 deck game with these poor rules and tiny spreads.

[Nikky_Flash]

Like doubling a 9 vs an 8. vs 7 it's +3... but what about vs 8? +7? Actually in that situation I'd have a max bet out and would probably play risk averse and give up my tiny bit of extra EV.

Since nobody has answered this for you yet, I believe your pretty close with it's T.C. , but I believe is more about 7 and a half...than a 7, hard to tell, could be a little higher even, since it's an 8 deck game , but a senior member might want to check it out, the index-stat I pulled is from Norms chart for 6 deck on www.card-counting.com , someone mentioned it's a similar index from 6deck to 8 deck .

[negEV]

Ya know, the 'snarky' reply, wasn't meant to be snarky.....you just chose to take it that way. (no smiley inserted)

I apologize then. I've just seen many crazy people on here that know nothing get attacked or made fun of... I don't claim to be an expert or even an advanced novice. But I didn't feel like my questions were crazy. I am just curious about additional indexes... also I wanted the right ones for the game I am playing not the generic ones on wizard of odds site.

You need to be thinking about bigger things, like a much more aggressive spread (and probably ramp). Traditionally with multi-deck games, you need to think in terms of a minimum spread of 2x number of decks or in this case 1-16....minimum! (no smiley inserted)

So if I was playing 6d I should spead 1-12x ??? Isn't that a red flag? The most I've ever done is 1-10x. 1-16x would be crazy for me. I'd rather play a break even game with a lower ROR and EV then play a game with an EV of $40/hr and swings of thousands of dollars.

The ramp I normally use is 1/2/4/5/6+ unit bets for TC -2 to +1 / +2 / +3 / +4 / +5 (not sure if I am writing that correctly but hopefully it's clear) I also bet half units when the ramp is in between levels. For a while I was more aggressive... hitting max bets at +3. Not sure if that was good or bad. I am sure I do not understand the finer points of the bet ramp. Other than bet more at higher counts. (I feel like after my emoji comment I can't use smileys now, oh heck! ) I also also not robotic about my ramp. I try and raise after a push/win and lower after a loss... but I don't always follow that rule.

You also have got to find a way to not play at least some of those negative counts, at least the worst of them. If you play all, with a small spread in such a game, you are playing little more than at break even game at best or possibly turning a very small profit, but dealing with very high variance to get that small profit.

I do try and wong in/out. Some days I will get a nice seat with a nice dealer and give up some EV to stay at one table. But I always TRY to find a table to back count and jump in around +1 - doesn't always happen. I only spend 10-15min max doing that. But I rarely jump into a mid shoe not knowing the count... only when it's tough to find an open spot... And I've just stopped playing in those situations for the most part. And more often I will wong out... my last session was about 3hrs and I wonged out 3-4 times. I used to try and wong out at -1... but I've had some -1 counts turn into great shoes. So now it's gotta be more like -2 for me to wong out.

I know I have much to learn... but I'm doing this as a hobby. I like home theater too... but I'm not going to study acoustical engineering and buy SPL meters and worry about phase issues and such... maybe someday. Plus I am low stakes in home theater too. If I had $100k to spend on a theater I'd be more interested in learning more. Just like if I was trying to make a living as an AP I'd need $100k+ BR and a much greater understanding on BR management and ROR.