How to not be so obvious that you are counting cards?

[seriousplayer]

When I play eight decks games I usually use the technique in Blackjack Attack. I attack eight deck games using Mr. Prefect, Wong in and Wong out and White Rabbit technique. The problem is that it makes me look like a card counter when applying those techniques. Especially the wong in and wong out method. It give the casino an indication that I counting when I am standing behind a table. How can I not be so obvious? Since that is the only way I can think of that lets me beat the game with a small bet spread.

[Halbruno]

I backcount 8D games at one of my local casinos. I only do this when there are a lot of players such as on a weekend. With a lot of people around, I feel that I am less likely to be noticed. At these times I can blend in with other non-counters who are watching. I also limit my time in one area to an hour or less depending on the crowd size, table conditions etc. I figure any longer than that, then someone will find what I am doing odd. I try to qualify a new shoe within the first deck. So, I keep moving around as much as possible until I find gold. Once I have spent an hour or so at each area or after having a big shoe, I leave.

[Three]

Use the white rabbit. You obviously have Don.s book and know there is little difference between Mr. Perfect and White Rabbit in terms of EV. It looks a lot less suspicious.

The other option which might help is a flat betting Mr. Perfect. If you only play advantage counts spreading becomes less of an issue. You may want to wong in a little later. You can run some sims to tweak the attack for this game.

[seriousplayer]

Use the white rabbit. You obviously have Don.s book and know there is little difference between Mr. Perfect and White Rabbit in terms of EV. It looks a lot less suspicious.

The other option which might help is a flat betting Mr. Perfect. If you only play advantage counts spreading becomes less of an issue. You may want to wong in a little later. You can run some sims to tweak the attack for this game.

?
If I use White Rabbit and play for a long time than the casino will be suspicious of me and half the shoe which I don't want that to happen. I notice many inexperience dealer who think average gamblers are counters because they are winning and half the shoe. So is the best way to play short session using white rabbit?

[Three]

If I use White Rabbit and play for a long time

Then stay shorter.

So is the best way to play short session using white rabbit?

If you want longevity it is all about being within the casino's tolerance levels. You seem to want to push that and you know what will happen and what you need to do to avoid it if you understand what they will tolerate. Frequency of visits and max bets and session length and win amounts and total cumulative win all have tolerance levels for each individual casino and even shift at that xasino. Camo can help you get away with more but that is tricky as many waste too much on expensive camo that isn't effective. You are in the best position to answer your question if you have accurately determined the casinos tolerances. You should already know your answer.

[Blitzkrieg]

If I use White Rabbit and play for a long time than the casino will be suspicious of me and half the shoe which I don't want that to happen. I notice many inexperience dealer who think average gamblers are counters because they are winning and half the shoe. So is the best way to play short session using white rabbit?

You don't know if your going to get half shoed until it happens. Don't make it become a self fulfilling prophecy and think about assumptions and what if's, roll up your sleeves and get in the trenches.

[ZenKinG]

Common sense goes a LONG WAY. If you're doing something that feels suspicious, DO the exact opposite.

Think like a plop, act like a plop, eat like a plop, piss like a plop, shit like a plop.

[Solo player]

Common sense goes a LONG WAY. If you're doing something that feels suspicious, DO the exact opposite.

Think like a plop, act like a plop, eat like a plop, piss like a plop, shit like a plop.

And lose like a ploppy. Poor advice.

[Gramazeka]

http://www.amazon.com/Blackbelt-Blac...=Arnold+Snyder

and

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Tacti...=Arnold+Snyder

[seriousplayer]

http://www.amazon.com/Blackbelt-Blac...=Arnold+Snyder

and

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Tacti...=Arnold+Snyder

I already have the book "Blackbelt in Blackjack". By the way Blackbelt in Blackjack was one of the books I refer to when I first start playing the game. What I like about that book is it presents a power card counting system (Red Seven Count) instead of a complex level multi-parameter count. Also, I read the articles in Blackjack forum online a lot. Blackbelt in Blackjack is definitely a good book. I only find one thing lacking in that book is writing more about variances and normal fluctuation. It was not until I study "Color of Blackjack" that I knew that playing two hands at advantage counts will decrease variance of up to 30% I found that helpful in shoe games.

I will get the book "Advance Tactics Casino Advantage Play ebook.

[seriousplayer]

I Wongout at TC = -1 then at the middle of the shoe the count show an advantage again. I wongin and play but the casino was a little suspicious of me. I need pointers from some experts player in this forum on how to deal with this situation. In your opinion what should I do? Should I wait for the shuffle or wongin and play?

[Three]

I Wongout at TC = -1 then at the middle of the shoe the count show an advantage again. I wongin and play but the casino was a little suspicious of me. I need pointers from some experts player in this forum on how to deal with this situation. In your opinion what should I do? Should I wait for the shuffle or wongin and play?

First you have to learn what your casino is sensitive to. There is a list of things most casinos are sensitive to. Obviously if you wong out dat this casino move to another table or wait to the next shoe. I would sit down and play but I am good at keeping the casino happy with what I do.

To use a baseball analogy, if you just throw fastballs no matter how good your stuff is they will catch up with it given enough time. If you mix in some off speed and breaking pitches they don't catch up with your fastball. If you go into the casino and play and bet perfectly to a simple count and wonging with the count they will catch up with you. Betting and playing cover is the other pitches. They were sure you had an advantage before that but many counters give their slim advantage away with cover they can't afford or maybe you are just a bad counter that will be a cash cow for them or maybe you aren't counting at all. Some short sighted casinos will back these players off but the smart ones make lots of money off of them. Only you can determine which you are dealing with.

Low level counters can't afford cover but usually don't need it anyway. The trouble is they will assess you as a counter but not act until either your winnings get out of hand or your BR gets big enough to view your play as a threat worth taking action against. The latter means you may burn the games you have been playing before you have a sufficient BR to make any real money there. Once you reach that point they back you off. Not the desired outcome for you. They let you play while your RoR was high (their guess) hoping to get your entire BR and back you off once your risk of ruin is lower and you have a real shot to make significant money.

If you can afford cover (higher level counter) it is your task to combine the most effective cover at the lowest price. Not doing what all counters do is a great mindset to get to that goal. The cheapest cover is free and has to do with comportment at the table. Most counters try to go unnoticed and want as little interaction with the suits as possible. They come off the top of a fresh shoe with their min bet. They raise their bets after a bunch of low cards hit the table and lower after a bunch of high cards hit. I don't need to list all the things counters do for you to get the idea. The less you look like a counter and act like a counter and play like a counter and bet like a counter the more time you buy with the cost to your play. Some cover is +EV, some costs you nothing and most will either cost you EV or increase variance or both. If your level of play at this game affords cover you must find effective, cheap cover.

Wonging style is a good place to start. If you are familiar with BJA3, Mr Perfect (wong in with an advantage but makes no waiting bets if advantage disappears) will get you backed off the quickest. Wong in, wong out (wongs in with an advantage but makes waiting bets until the departure point is reached after having made waiting bets while the re was no advantage but before the optimal departure point) is not much better. White Rabbit (plays off the top of a fresh shoe and leaves at the optimal departure point) looks the most natural. They are all very similar in results. What you described was WiWo making the disadvantage bets (waiting bets) but then sticking around not making bets when the optimal departure point was reached. That is not optimal wonging as you make disadvantage bets, didn't leave at the optimal departure point and is easiest to spot having to use wonging in place just like Mr Perfect does. If you have a reason not to be a table hopping White Rabbit, playing off the top and quickly abandoning bad shoes, you must remember wonging in place can only be used very sparingly if at all. Most of the time it looks too suspicious. If you can time a girl friend visit or ordering a drink or something else that demands your attention for a few rounds wonging in place can look perfectly natural. Just don't overdue the cell phone thing. That only works when used at low frequency. It just looks suspicious if it happens most of the time the count drops.

The main goal of wonging is to play as few waiting bets and at as small a disadvantage as possible while playing as many advantage bets as possible. You can mix your style up pretty good and accomplish this goal without doing anything that gets you red flagged. If all you do is this strategy it makes it easier to decide they know your strategy and it is one they don't want employed in their casino. If you accomplish your goals by mixing up lots of different approaches it is really hard to decide they understand what you are doing and need to back you off as a threat. They will need to see it in net win over time to be sure. Some places back off lots of ploppies to over protect their game. The cost ends up being more than letting most of the counters play and only backing off serious threats but you have to work with how they do business. You will probably not buy much time with cover play at a joint like that. Might as well take your shot or avoid the casino altogether if they communicate with other casinos. If they do share information with other casinos you probably should avoid the casino altogether. You will not win enough to offset the cost to longevity by the shared info on you.

[seriousplayer]

Tthree thank you for your advice.

"If you have a reason not to be a table hopping White Rabbit, playing off the top and quickly abandoning bad shoes, you must remember wonging in place can only be used very sparingly if at all."

The reason I was not being a table hopping White Rabbit is because the penetration is not good on other tables. I only found one table and sometimes two tables with good penetration. They cut off 1.25 to 1 deck. As you know deck penetration in an eight deck game is very important. When I was inspecting I see other tables cutting off 2 decks or more. Some of them are 1.5 deck cut off.