Is card counting legal?

**Norm** · 02-26-2014, 08:35 AM

A Washington Post article claiming card counting is cheating ticked me off. Hardly the first such article. But, I wanted to make it easier to respond to such articles, and to try to counteract the long-time casino effort to convince people that counters are cheats. Turns out that the phrase "Is card counting illegal" is entered into Google 880 times a month. So, I created a new website this morning:

http://www.iscardcountingillegal.com

Yes, yet another blackjack website. Please feel free to contribute, make suggestions or corrections. Or, to spread the word.

**counter19** · 02-26-2014, 08:53 AM

You would think that common sense alone would tell you that it isn't cheating. How would one prove that somebody is counting? Gamblers by coincidence make a 2-unit bet when the count is +2, 3-unit at +3, etc. And that is just assuming Hi-Lo. So that wouldn't work as proof. Simply winning isn't proof either.
It would be too hard to prosecute. You would have to read one's mind to know.

**Norm** · 02-26-2014, 09:02 AM

There is nothing more uncommon than common sense

.

**SiMi** · 02-26-2014, 10:14 AM

I canceled my subscription to the local fish wrapper decades ago when I realized I could buy a book of 1,000 NY Times Crossword puzzles and a box of 500 Fire Starter bricks for less than an annual subscription to the paper.

The Maryland Live casino is probably a big advertiser in the WP paper and the editor needs material. Editor sends out intrepid young reporter, J. Freedom du Lac, to write yet another puff piece about the only local attraction of mild interest, Maryland Live! Et voila, yet another poorly written, poorly researched, error-riddled piece of tripe that no one (except Mr. du Lac's mother) will read.

The 880 Google searches per month are probably about 1% of the unemployed and/or "disabled" people who watched "Holy Rollers" or "21" that month and are mildly curious why these guys are so poorly treated by casinos and wonder if they could fill their unlimited free time with some get-rich-quick blackjack at the local Indian Joint.

I don't think education works on the masses and I'm not sure it matters much in this case. It isn't (and can't be) illegal to count cards but casinos will always protect their bottom line. If any education is undertaken, I'd like to educate the CASINO MANAGEMENT about Bill Zender and Eliot Jacobson's views that counters should largely be ignored and probably help Casinos more than they hurt.

The amount of money won by people who actually count successfully is likely far less than the amount the Casinos spend and blow in trying to stop counters. I just played 12 hours at a place that cuts 1.5 decks from a 6 deck shoe and has a max bet at a $10 table of $250 and couldn't believe the time they wasted shuffling compared to the smaller place I normally frequent that cuts less than 1 deck with a $1,000 max bet and has been doing this for 10 years! The difference is amazing. Multiply those lost hands by ALL the tables ALL the time and the dollar loss to the paranoid Casino would be shocking. I'd love to see the revenue figures for the 2 casinos...

**biggg** · 02-26-2014, 12:51 PM

Guys don't worry they will not arrest you for card counting at Maryland Live, enjoy counting down your two shoes an hour with the relaxing knowledge you will not face arrest!

**SURFER** · 02-26-2014, 02:33 PM

Nice site!!!

**Norm** · 02-26-2014, 02:57 PM

We are real. The new site has already received 16 spams, all different e-mails and IPs. Spammers are faster than Google.

If you wish to make comments on the site, probably should do so quickly as I guess I'll have to block comments.

**bigplayer** · 02-26-2014, 05:09 PM

Good job Norm. How can it be illegal to think?

**ZenKinG** · 02-27-2014, 04:47 PM

why would it tick you off norm, the less counters the better I believe. More counters means more burned out games. Casinos executives are idiots too, they should be encouraging card counting because most counters fail and are nothing more than a basic strategy player at the end of it all.

**Norm** · 02-27-2014, 05:26 PM

As many on both sides of the game have stated, there exists a symbiotic relationship between casinos and APs. Or, at least there should. The existence of APs has enormously benefited the casino industry. The simple fact that games are beatable makes the game more interesting, even to those that know full well that they will never put in the effort to beat the games. It makes players feel better if they think the odds can be moved in their favor, even if they make no actual effort to do so. The efforts by casinos to demonize card counters hurts everyone, including the casinos.

Of course, that is just the logical explanation. There also exists an emotional toll on APs, whether or not they admit it to themselves or to others. It is simply not healthful to spend your life considered a pariah by others, or to either try to justify your interests, or hide those interests, to friends, family and acquaintances. Why should players have to deal with these extra problems based on disinformation spewed by casinos?

**ZenKinG** · 02-27-2014, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Norm

As many on both sides of the game have stated, there exists a symbiotic relationship between casinos and APs. Or, at least there should. The existence of APs has enormously benefited the casino industry. The simple fact that games are beatable makes the game more interesting, even to those that know full well that they will never put in the effort to beat the games. It makes players feel better if they think the odds can be moved in their favor, even if they make no actual effort to do so. The efforts by casinos to demonize card counters hurts everyone, including the casinos.

Of course, that is just the logical explanation. There also exists an emotional toll on APs, whether or not they admit it to themselves or to others. It is simply not healthful to spend your life considered a pariah by others, or to either try to justify your interests, or hide those interests, to friends, family and acquaintances. Why should players have to deal with these extra problems based on disinformation spewed by casinos?

So your whole argument that irritates you about casinos scaring off APs is on the emotional effect. I can care less about that. The less APs, more money for me, to be honest. And to be really sincere, I have never felt any emotional pain you speak of lol.

All they are doing by demonizing card counters is hurting themselves, because less novices will be playing that think they have a long term edge, so for me it doesn't irritate me one bit. I just hope it doesn't hurt the casino too much, that can cause paranoia on their part, and potentially it hurt the remaining APs, which might be your point?

**Norm** · 02-28-2014, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by ZenKinG

So your whole argument

Hardly.

**SiMi** · 02-28-2014, 08:06 AM

It's much easier for the casino to justify removing someone if the public thinks that person is doing something wrong such as cheating. Classy places run by smart people will always try to remove a player with the least upset to other players. That's why the smart ones will act nice to CCers and say things such as "Your play is too strong for us." Also, forceful or confrontational back offs raise the possibility of an expensive lawsuit.

The masses of gamblers have no real idea what CC is all about. They see movies and TV shows that portray CCers as massive nerds and/or organized gangs of money-moving manipulators, skirting the law and hiding what they do from everyone. The masses just can't relate to that. The masses don't care at all about the plight of David, the lonely CC, legally trying to get an edge against Goliath, the mammoth Casino.

To me, CCers are somewhat like Extreme Couponers at the grocery store. The store puts those coupons out there to attract business. Some people will go to the trouble to "take advantage" of the coupons to get a good deal. But, the stores need to honor the coupons so that the masses will continue to shop there to save a buck on Cheerios with a coupon. The store should not treat couponers as if they are doing something wrong. If the store doesn't want to honor coupons, stop issuing coupons! But, they don't do that because coupons bring in more business.

Similarly, CCers will go to the trouble to learn how to count and bet so as to "take advantage" of the rules in a given BJ game. The fact that the games can, in theory, be beaten is what brings many people to the tables in the first place. How many times have you heard someone say, "Wow, that's a lot of low cards, I'm betting more next hand!" You're sitting there with a RC of -10 thinking, "We're a long way from having an advantage but go ahead and up your bet so the Casino can make some more money."

Casinos need to wake up and do the math and discover that CCers, on balance, are not a threat to their bottom lines and changing the rules and procedures and kicking them out are just plain bad business in most cases! It's hard for me to believe that the people who run these casinos have not done the studies to find out whether, for example, changing to deeper penetration results in more or less hold for a given table. Zender claims to have done this at the Aladdin and reports deeper pen. = more hold. If he's wrong, it would be trivial to prove but I've never seen any evidence that he's wrong. His evidence is that hold goes UP with deeper pen:

http://www.casinoenterprisemanagemen...enue-potential