Hi-Lo and my story

**ZenKinG** · 02-24-2014, 07:54 PM

Im proud to say ive gone full circle. Two years ago I picked up counting while I was in college. I quickly picked up Hi-Lo before moving to Zen right around the time I joined this forum. So I stayed with zen without even learning indices as I was still a novice and didn't know what I was doing and like many new players, we think we knew a lot and didn't know anything. I was oblivious to the math and thought it was all about RC and TC conversions. Thanks to this forum and many of the long time pros, I quickly learned what it really takes to be successful as a counter and how hard it really is and how much you have to grind it out.

Day by day reading the forums, it became apparent if I was serious about the game and playing it long term, I would need to buy CVCX, in which I did. And just to note, CVCX was one of the best softwares I ever bought and I'm not just saying that. It really helped me learn about the game not just from playing, but the ins and outs of the game. The math was right in front of me and it kind of forced me to learn by myself, which all new players should aspire to do. Constantly asking questions on the forum, it helps, but you won't develop as a player. CVCX not only devised the optimal spreads for my bankroll, calculated risk, etc, but it helped me see the math of the game and made me play around with it and ultimately see where the money is made and where it goes.

So I started thinking to myself now that Ive got a real understanding of the game, let me pick one final count and get the most out of it. I decided on going for something with the highest possible BC, without needing to go to anything beyond level 3. I was and still am a shoe player, so that's all I really wanted. So I found wong halves, learned as many indices as I could(to date, nearly all of them, very close) and decided to start playing more seriously. I'm a little above expectation for the many hours that I've logged and that is great and all, but I'm starting to realize maybe I've made costly errors while playing and my EV could be even higher by just playing a simple count. We all think we are perfect players and we never miss a calculation, but it's simply not true. As KJ has mentioned during his tenure, he played with RPC for I believe 18 months or so before switching back to Hi-Lo and I'm on a similar path. Speed and less errors is what it's all about for me now. And although I was fast to keep up wit any dealer out there while using halves, I just want the peace of mind at the table with as less mental stress while playing to make sure I'm playing a sound and error free game. Hi-Lo also has very similar indices as Halves, so it was very encouraging to revert back to.

Lastly, I'm looking now to really focus on counting multiple tables at once, which I was not able to do with Halves because of the decimals. The decimals .5, 1.5 really made it difficult to keep track of both tables because I like to use my fingers to keep the second count and with decimals it makes it a lot harder than it needs to be. Also as a side not, I'm in no way saying level 2 and 3 counts are not worth it and if you're confident with them and you are positive you are not making any errors, then stay with it, but for me it was more of a peace of mind thing. I was very confident I didn't make much errors if any, but I want to start focusing on more important things and Hi-Lo will help me get there, as well as help me get into other AP techniques later on, if I choose to do so.

Hopefully I didn't bore you guys to death, but just thought I'd let you guys know where ive come and gone and maybe inspire the new players to what really matters when playing long term.

**muckz** · 02-24-2014, 07:58 PM

Wow, this came out of nowhere.

**Rudy** · 02-24-2014, 08:25 PM

<p>

Originally Posted by ZenKinG

Im proud to say ive gone full circle. Two years ago I picked up counting while I was in college. I quickly picked up Hi-Lo before moving to Zen right around the time I joined this forum. So I stayed with zen without even learning indices as I was still a novice and didn't know what I was doing and like many new players, we think we knew a lot and didn't know anything. I was oblivious to the math and thought it was all about RC and TC conversions. Thanks to this forum and many of the long time pros, I quickly learned what it really takes to be successful as a counter and how hard it really is and how much you have to grind it out. Day by day reading the forums, it became apparent if I was serious about the game and playing it long term, I would need to buy CVCX, in which I did. And just to note, CVCX was one of the best softwares I ever bought and I'm not just saying that. It really helped me learn about the game not just from playing, but the ins and outs of the game. The math was right in front of me and it kind of forced me to learn by myself, which all new players should aspire to do. Constantly asking questions on the forum, it helps, but you won't develop as a player. CVCX not only devised the optimal spreads for my bankroll, calculated risk, etc, but it helped me see the math of the game and made me play around with it and ultimately see where the money is made and where it goes. So I started thinking to myself now that Ive got a real understanding of the game, let me pick one final count and get the most out of it. I decided on going for something with the highest possible BC, without needing to go to anything beyond level 3. I was and still am a shoe player, so that's all I really wanted. So I found wong halves, learned as many indices as I could(to date, nearly all of them, very close) and decided to start playing more seriously. I'm a little above expectation for the many hours that I've logged and that is great and all, but I'm starting to realize maybe I've made costly errors while playing and my EV could be even higher by just playing a simple count. We all think we are perfect players and we never miss a calculation, but it's simply not true. As KJ has mentioned during his tenure, he played with RPC for I believe 18 months or so before switching back to Hi-Lo and I'm on a similar path. Speed and less errors is what it's all about for me now. And although I was fast to keep up wit any dealer out there while using halves, I just want the peace of mind at the table with as less mental stress while playing to make sure I'm playing a sound and error free game. Hi-Lo also has very similar indices as Halves, so it was very encouraging to revert back to. Lastly, I'm looking now to really focus on counting multiple tables at once, which I was not able to do with Halves because of the decimals. The decimals .5, 1.5 really made it difficult to keep track of both tables because I like to use my fingers to keep the second count and with decimals it makes it a lot harder than it needs to be. Also as a side not, I'm in no way saying level 2 and 3 counts are not worth it and if you're confident with them and you are positive you are not making any errors, then stay with it, but for me it was more of a peace of mind thing. I was very confident I didn't make much errors if any, but I want to start focusing on more important things and Hi-Lo will help me get there, as well as help me get into other AP techniques later on, if I choose to do so. Hopefully I didn't bore you guys to death, but just thought I'd let you guys know where ive come and gone and maybe inspire the new players to what really matters when playing long term.

Good for you my friend, I'm taking the same path. In my case, I play full time, but so many hours, so many days, with side counts, makes me commit small mistakes without noticing, and is very exhausting for me, and the swings are huge. A latin friend of the forum, who is very successful with Hi Lo in his country, just convice me, that I can win easily with Hi Lo in today's games, without much sacrifice. Good luck with that ZK, and keep me updated. P.S. Stop counting that nine!</p>

KJ · 02-24-2014, 08:38 PM

So, you have decided all this in the last 2 hours and 28 minutes, since your post "halves for life"?

**Rudy** · 02-24-2014, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by KJ

So, you have decided all this in the last 2 hours and 28 minutes, since your post "halves for life"?

Lol

**muckz** · 02-24-2014, 09:55 PM

I don't think the criticism ZK is getting is really that necessary. From my experience ZK has a fairly aggressive personality, I would not have expected a post like this. Even if he did arrive at this decision in a couple of hours, one moment of clarity is all it takes. Basically, ZK says he learned something after 2 years and is now being criticized for it.

**Three** · 02-24-2014, 10:17 PM

No KJ. I chatted with him many months ago about learning when you are at your peak and eliminating playing when you are not to eliminate the possibility of errors. He was very insistent that he kept halves and an insurance count error free but was concerned about a big downswing after experiencing the positive side of variance. He eventually realized that he is human and rather than learning his daily brain cycles asked about simpler counts. I was not trying to make that point but the reasons so many like simple counts were discussed and the advantage of counting multiple tables or the ease of use in more advanced techniques was explained. He decided to go the simple route rather than learn his brains daily cycles of being sharp and taking a couple siestas without notice.

It was not where I was steering the conversation but his decision was based on the math we discussed and was where he took the series of conversations. Since then he has been practicing and eventually using HILO. Few pitch games are available in the region and they are not dealt deep and watched closely. For what he wanted to do HILO was a good fit and once I made him realize his negative turn which could be variance but may be from expecting his brain to operate a peak efficiency when it needs time to recharge and does it without him noticing. This latter fact hasn't changed but the piece of mind that the combination of that with a more difficult count isn't to blame has its appeal. But the decision was based on the fact that if he could keep Halves and an Insurance count at the same time accurately, as he insisted he could, would increase the return of HILO while skewing the count frequency played in a very positive way by counting down 2 tables at once. The affect of this on all the math of the game was discussed as he was thorough at asking questions.

It just goes to show you that people make up their own minds when given the strengths and weaknesses of both the human factor and the counts and how they can be used. All I was trying to get him to realize was we are human and make mistakes and our minds have their individual daily rhythms. He asked the questions about the simpler counts and I answered them as honestly as I could. Then he made an informed decision. I am not good at processing the passage of time but it seems like 4-6 months ago. That means it is at least that and probably longer.

**ohbehave** · 02-24-2014, 10:20 PM

No worries, the BJ world is still in balance. 3 days ago I started working with RPC Lite. Since my earlier days with HiOpt2 at DD a level 2 count just feels right. Nothing wrong with HiLo it just drives me nuts to not count the 7's. RPC seems a good fit.

ZK, just use what you like.

KJ · 02-24-2014, 11:38 PM

Muckz and T3: I don't really care what count ZK or anyone else uses. I am a proponent of simplicity as I am sure everyone knows, because I just feel like what count you play isn't really all that important. In today's environment, it matters a whole lot less that it once did. What matters is identifying the positive situations and getting the money out.

And most counts will do that, identifying most of the same situations. So what really becomes important is that you pick a count that suits your needs and become prolific with it. Now that might sound a bit hypocritical, because as noted, I switched counts. Twice actually, from hi-lo to RPC and back again 18 months later. I really feel like that was one of the mistakes I made in my career. Just time lost going sideways instead of forward.

So again, I don't care what count ZK plays. If he has re-evaluated his needs and goals and modified his position, in which he has been so dug in at times....power to him. I am not criticizing him for that decision at all.

Hey, I like the kid (and I don't get to call too many members 'kid'), even if he has fought me tooth and nail most of his time here.

He spends enough time on the site and in chat that I do feel like he is sincere in his blackjack quest. But let's not pretend not to have noticed that a mere two hours before this 'revelation', he made that strange 3 word post "halves for life". At this point, I have no idea whether he is serious or yanking our chain to get a reaction.

**Blitzkrieg** · 02-25-2014, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by ZenKinG

Speed and less errors is what it's all about for me now. And although I was fast to keep up wit any dealer out there while using halves, I just want the peace of mind at the table with as less mental stress while playing to make sure I'm playing a sound and error free game.
Lastly, I'm looking now to really focus on counting multiple tables at once, which I was not able to do with Halves because of the decimals. The decimals .5, 1.5 really made it difficult to keep track of both tables because I like to use my fingers to keep the second count and with decimals it makes it a lot harder than it needs to be.
.

I cannot blame you for trying to backcount but two tables at once? Don't you think that is going to RACK your brain? Especially two 6 deck shoes, what if both tables are extreme negative, your going to be doing mental gymnastics, good luck with that. I see that as a way of increasing errors and increasing mental exhaustion. Your head will have to be on a swivel in the pit and if you have to use your fingers to count... your trying way to hard or you need to work on your counting to where you do not have to use your digits. Grab the bull by the horns and attack the game straight up is the way I like to approach the game. Back counting has it's advantages and disadvantages but I don't like to employ it in my approach, I think it looks too obvious to the pit if their not busy. They will have more time to turn you into a case study and see those fingers moving. You might as well have an abacus in your hand. Why not find a good pitch game and put all your focus/energy into that one game?

How many hours of practice time do you spend back counting two 6 decks simultaneously before you go into the casino? I hope you have buddies that are spreading out atleast 7 hands per table and hopefully you don't have people in the way in the casino to where you cannot see the cards on first and third base respectively.

**yesiamred** · 02-25-2014, 05:30 AM

Whatever, sometimes it takes a few sysytems to get the one that fits you just right! I too have tried various balanced and unbalanced counts and finally think I have found the "right" system and with the help of software have tweeked it just for me!

**FalseCount** · 02-25-2014, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg

How many hours of practice time do you spend back counting two 6 decks simultaneously before you go into the casino? I hope you have buddies that are spreading out atleast 7 hands per table and hopefully you don't have people in the way in the casino to where you cannot see the cards on first and third base respectively.

My friend, this is not how counting two tables at once works, at least not in my experience. One watches a round dealt, counts it and keeps it in mind. Then the other table is watched and counted. This is done for maybe a few rounds until one table reveals itself as more profitable, at which point the less profitable table is abandoned until the next opportunity. In the process of counting multiple tables one might miss a few hit cards. Simply count these as "unseen" losses in penetration. If the game is good enough, missing these few cards is a small price to pay to discover a potentially highly advantageous table.

**Blitzkrieg** · 02-25-2014, 04:03 PM

Sure, if conditions just happen to be right. More power to the people if that's the approach they want to take. If I was in the pit and I seen this going down I would be right on top of the player to back-off his/her bet as they start splashing down BIG bets. Casino personnel may not know how to play their own games that well but their also not completely ignorant either.