Ace5 and Spanish 21

[nvr55xx]

What follows is my attempt at testing the Ace5 count on Spanish 21 using CVData (full, paid version)
I set up CVData for Spanish 21 according to the directions in the user's guide. Please feel free to send let me know your thoughts and criticisms, what I did wrong, etc. Overall, I would say that the Wizard's simplified Ace5 system DOES work for Spanish 21! I used Spanish21 Basic Strategy (NOT regular BJ strategy) for the Playing Strategy
Spanish 21 simulation: S17, 8 Decks 75%pen, 1 player, NO cover unless indicated
300 million rounds per sim
Ace5 Tag Values: 5=+1, Ace=-1, all others=0
Running Count (no True Count conversions) used in all simulations.
Betting system: Ace5, bet 1 units at negative counts, zero, or +1, bet 2 units at RC 2, 3 units at RC 3, etc. to maximum spread
Spread TBA% IBA% SCORE
FLAT -0.329 -0.373 -9.94
1 to 2 -0.087 -0.099 -0.64
1 to 3 0.067 0.076 0.33
1 to 4 0.158 0.179 1.68
1 to 5 0.234 0.264 3.35
1 to 6 0.283 0.32 4.57
1 to 7 0.349 0.394 6.54
1 to 8 0.394 0.445 7.96
1 to 9 0.419 0.473 8.59
1 to 10 0.446 0.503 9.4
1 to 11 0.473 0.534 10.24
1 to 12 0.484 0.546 10.45
1 to 13 0.527 0.594 12.08
1 to 14 0.53 0.598 12.03
1 to 15 0.543 0.612 12.41
1 to 16 0.544 0.614 12.32
1 to 17 0.569 0.642 13.34
1 to 18 0.59 0.665 14.22
1 to 19 0.573 0.645 13.3
1 to 20 0.562 0.633 12.75
Wonging: Playing with 2nd Basic Strategy player (seat 1) and only entering shoes with +3 counts
Exiting (not re-entering) shoes with counts of -1 or less
Spread TBA% IBA% SCORE
Flat -0.446 -0.507 -18.39 Seat 1 All Hands Played
FlatWong0.419 0.473 2.17 Seat 2 29.2% Hands Played
FLAT -0.452 -0.514 -18.88 Seat 1 All Hands Played
1 to 3 0.517 0.583 6.88 Seat 2 29.2% Hands Played
Flat -0.432 -0.491 -17.21 Seat 1 All Hands Played
1 to 20 0.89 1 14.45 Seat 2 29.2% Hands Played
Playing Heads Up with Cover Added:
No increase after a loss, no decrease after a win, same bet after a push, no large increases, no large decreases
Spread TBA% IBA% SCORE
1 to 20 0.345 0.39 5.9
spread to 2 hands at +3 or higher:
Spread TBA% IBA% SCORE
1 to 3 0.156 0.177 1.87
1 to 4 0.258 0.292 4.65
1 to 5 0.336 0.38 7.29
1 to 6 0.369 0.417 8.26
1 to 7 0.42 0.475 10.16
1 to 8 0.477 0.539 12.49
1 to 9 0.512 0.578 13.82
1 to 10 0.54 0.61 14.89
1 to 11 0.555 0.627 15.27
1 to 12 0.585 0.66 16.52
1 to 13 0.602 0.68 17.15
1 to 14 0.609 0.687 17.24
1 to 15 0.62 0.7 17.59
1 to 16 0.635 0.716 18.23
1 to 17 0.652 0.735 19.04
1 to 18 0.665 0.75 19.64
1 to 19 0.656 0.74 19.02
1 to 20 0.671 0.756 19.77
Wonging: Playing with 2nd Basic Strategy player (seat 1) and only entering shoes with +3 counts
Exiting (not re-entering) shoes with counts of -1 or less
Playing 2 hands at +3 or higher
Spread TBA% IBA% SCORE
FLAT -0.504 -0.573 23.49 All Hands Played
1 to 3 0.539 0.609 9.03 25.1% Hands Played
Flat -0.516 -0.587 -24.57 All Hands Played
1 to 20 0.89 1.002 17.89 25.1% Hands Played

Playing Heads up, spreading to 2 hands at +3 with Cover Added:
No increase after a loss, no decrease after a win, same bet after a push, no large increases, no large decreases
Spread TBA% IBA% SCORE
1 to 20 0.351 0.396 6.81

[Three]

Good luck getting a heads up east Coast Spanish 21 game.

[Nikky_Flash]

Hmmm...that's interesting ... what happens when you tag it as KO count, ? 2-7 + 1 , Ace and tens -1 , since I saw somewhere that unbalanced counts don't work for Span21 for some reason or another ... wonder what happens

[Norm]

KO shouldn't work well because there are no tens causing the count to be too unbalanced.

[Jabberwocky]

But counting deuces as +.5 creates a nice unbalance of +2 per deck as per red 7.

[Nikky_Flash]

KO shouldn't work well because there are no tens causing the count to be too unbalanced.

Oh yeah , That makes sense , what about Hi-Opt II ? using the AceSide just like regular BlackJack? Does that work good?

[Norm]

Using a level II card counting strategy with an ace side count, and watching for the very large number of Spanish 21 basic strategy modifications for bonuses would be exhausting. You want a count with a high betting correlation. HiLo has a 97% BC, which is fine. If you really wanted to push it, you could use RPC as it has a 99% BC without side-counting.

[Norm]

Good points. But, most Spanish 21 players use no indices at all. Yes, playing hands is extremely important in SP21. But, using indices on top of the dramatic variation of basic strategy is extremely difficult and of dubious advantage. Spanish 21 BS already has 44 deviations, and they are more complex than what we think of as basic strategy. Rules like hit with 4 or more cards or suited 678 possible. Or, double with 4 or more cards. Clearly you could expand on this by adding indices. But, if you can do all that, you could probably also cure cancer.

[Nikky_Flash]

I know K. Walker uses straight Hi-lo successfully , but would Hi-Lo, or KO count varied with Ace as -2, or -3, respectively, work well? (I would try to sim it myself but I seem to have issues setting up things I'm familiar with, much less, something new like Span21)

[Nikky_Flash]

Seems alot of those bonus payouts, like 2:1 , 3:1 something like 6 card 21 or 7 card whatever... / would happen when there is a surplus of low-cards / low-count situations ...when we would have a min. bet out ...

[Nikky_Flash]

The faces are pretty minor cards for betting. The ace and 5 followed by the 4 are the big drivers in advantage. If few aces have been seen you should be ramping your bet most of the time. Look at the betting EORs in order of magnitude of the cards worth counting in the S17 game:
A: -1.28
5: +.96
4: +.80
6: +.56
3: +.56
T: -.48
2: +.40
9: -.25

As you can see the ace is by far the driver of advantage and the 5 and to lesser degree 4 are also big drivers. The face cards are fairly minor. The 9 is usually thrown in for count balance for playing and betting. It really has little value for betting. One five seen balances 2 face cards exactly. Two 4's more than balance 3 faces. Five 3's and/or 6's exactly balance six faces. A table mostly covered in paint might increase your advantage if no aces and some 5's and/or 4's are out there. As you can see the minus cards are all at the bottom of the column except for the ace which is the UBER card supreme for betting. Those top 2 cards in the chart explain exactly why the Ace-5 count works better than in BJ.

Good Info Tthree , 1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. and it's me ... So from that : I'm thinking a customized count of 5,4 = +1 each, and Ace = - 2 ? , or a more balanced/ would be 5,4 = +1 each , Ace -1 , and Ten -1
I bet that count would kick some butt on Sp21 ,

[Three]

or a more balanced/ would be 5,4 = +1 each , Ace -1 , and Ten -1

There are 3 T ranks so you will need 2 more ranks to balance it. The 3 and 6 are the likely suspects.

[Nikky_Flash]

There are 3 T ranks so you will need 2 more ranks to balance it. The 3 and 6 are the likely suspects.

ok , (I keep forgetting the weird 10's) so something like a Ace = -2 , and 5 , 4, + 1 each might be best after all