What would you do at THESE casinos as an AP?

[counter19]

I won't say where, but there are only 4 casinos in my area. I have to drive about 85-100 miles depending on the casino. The casinos are so small that "blending in" is impossible. I play there frequently and every pit boss and dealer knows me by name.

Here are some of the facts of these casinos:

1. There are often times where there is only ONE table to play at, which further makes blending in very difficult.
2. I have to have a players card, which since everybody knows me there already, I might as well do.
3. 3 of the 4 casinos have great penetration. They deal 5 of the 6 decks. At one casino, they deal slightly more than 5 decks.
4. The biggest casino, where I can hide out a little better, unfortunately deals only about 4 of the 6 decks and are always PACKED with players. They also are the only casino that has 8 decks. They have only one table with 6 decks.
5. One casino in particular is the best. They deal 5/6 decks and it is the only casino with S17. One of the other casinos, the one that deals slightly more than 5 decks, is H17 but they offer surrender.
6. All casinos offer DAS and pay 3/2 blackjack.
7. All casinos have 2 deck blackjack, but they only deal 1 of the 2 decks so I don't think it is worth it.
8. Most of the time, the tables are only $5 minimum and are consequently full and usually SLOWWWWWW because of morons jumping in and out. The 2-deck tables are usually the only $10 tables. The only $10 tables at the bigger casino are 8-deck. Therefore, there are NO $10 tables that are 6-deck.

Since most everybody at these casinos know me and I have to have a players card, I depend very heavily on "ratholing." Hiding my wins and exaggerating my losses seems like a must under these circumstances if I do not want to wear out my welcome. I also dress the part. I wear clothes that suggest that I am very blue-collar and dumb. When talking, I try to remove any sort of intelligent vocabulary and pretend that I believe in such hocus-pocus as "the flow" of the cards and other superstitions. I also commit a huge counter "no-no." I drink alcohol while playing. Although you may not believe it, drinking does not affect my counting AT ALL and helps me to blend in. For whatever reason, it seems to take a lot of alcohol for me to get buzzed. I have also practiced counting at home while drinking just to make sure.
My question is, what do you think of my strategy under these circumstances? I have been playing for a while now and have never been asked to leave. I have been on incredible winning streaks as well and it does not seem to be a problem. Of course, I play assuming that they are watching me constantly. Also, at the casino where they cut out 2 decks, it seems to me that it would be better to play the 8 decks just because 6 divided by 8 is a greater % than 4 divided by 6. However, I have much more trouble winning at this casino.

I have other questions as well, but this seems enough for now. Any comments would be great since I have no "card-counter friends." Thanks!

[bigplayer]

Sounds like you should just keep on doing what you are doing. Trying to find out if the casinos network is probably something you should try to do so that if backed off by one it doesn't result in a backoff at all of them. Rotate through all of the tolerant shifts of the casino and not wearing out your welcome at any of them is important.

[RS]

Surrender is more valuable to a card-counter than is S17 (ie: H17 LS is better than S17 w/o LS).

Depending on the amount of decks depends on what kind of penetration you want. For example, the the 50% pen DD game is (probably better, or close to) the 66% pen 6D game.

If you're spreading nickels, there's a decent chance they don't care what you do. If you're spreading green, that's a different story. Also depends on how big the stores are (sounds like they're small).


If you haven't already, buy CVCX. It's simulation software for blackjack so you can figure out what your hourly rate is, your risk, etc., that way you can figure out which game is best for you (6-deck, 8-deck, double deck, etc. depending on the rules, %pen, what you're comfortable spreading, risk, etc.).

[counter19]

Thank you bigplayer. Though I must say that I have no idea how to find out if they network. I have been concerned about this too but I don't know how to ask the question without it being obvious why I am asking.

I have been trying to get information from dealers by carefully choosing questions. For example, I have said "I noticed that some guys almost got into a fight last night. What's the craziest thing that you have seen since you have been working here?" And then I'll ask "have you ever had to throw somebody out for anything?" I am inviting them to tell me that they have thrown someone out for card counting. But each dealer that I ask never mentions card counting. I rarely hear the phrase come up from anyone.

That's the best I know to do in my circumstances.

[counter19]

Thank you for the info Stoned. I figured that surrender would be more valuable, but I never knew for sure. I have heard of CVCX in multiple forums. I may check that out.

I had read that if you can not get at least 75% penetration, you should not play it. I wish I could at least play these 66% penetration games alone or with just a few others because when dealing 6 decks at a full table, you only get a few hands when they cut out 2 decks. It's slow and it sucks.

Thanks again.

[ZeeBabar]

I think we tend to get too paranoid about heat, that everytime a pit creature walks towards your table, it must be you. Unless you have been barred or play Green, forget about keeping up an act, of not being yourself. I suggest, picking one casino and just being yourself, play without cover, and test out your conclusions. I play at my local casino where they know I am employed, have a 6 figure salary and I chat with the pit and the dealers they all know me. I just keep the win sessions to under $500 when playing reds and make sure they know when I am losing. Everytime I lose the initial $100 I cash in, and the dealer calls out when cashing the second, I let them know that is my second or third and ask for a buffet comp now and then, mentioning that I would like an expensive buffet, lost $300 etc. I probably average about $300 per month at the local one, playing 6 hours each week. Its like going to happy hour, drop in for an hour on my way home. yes, EV is about $8 per hour when averaged out but it is my local one and I do not want to lose it.

[Three]

I had read that if you can not get at least 75% penetration, you should not play it.

There are a lot of things that make a game playable. Once , a long time ago, I showed up at this little joint to play some great mailers. The place mostly has CSMs but not in the high limit. The pen in the high limit was crap. Like 2.5 to 3 decks cut off and a crowded table. I didn't want to play the mailers and bolt because these are the best mailers I get. I sit down and play. I am surprised to be doing okay and notice a few payout errors on the other end of the table. I decide to stay. The payout errors kept happening but had spread to everyone else at the table but me. Finally I get payed a max bet that I lost. The dealers switch and I figure the party is over. This one makes more mistakes than the last. The count keeps being high despite the bad pen and I am betting pretty heavy. I get paid a max bet double down that I lost. By then there has been time for a call from the eye. No call comes. I figure surveillance isn't watching their only big game for counters. I throw cover to the wind and then the shift change comes. I wonged out of negative counts to take advantage of a free slot play promo for each time you earn a pittance in points. The new dealer can't add at all. He makes the others look like they are MIT geniuses. I am getting payout errors on almost every round that I don't win. Then the Floor is called to fix an error in the wrong direction for another player. She backs up all the payouts. Then instructs how to pay each payout. They pay the guy on his win but now I get payed on my push that was pushed by the dealer. I was like WTF; no eye, dealers can't add and the Floor can't add either. The payout errors are now higher than a big win for me. Did I die and go to AP heaven? Then a while later a goody 2 shoes shows up and makes a comment about getting payed on pushes when the player next to me gets payed on a push. I got up and left at that point with thousands in payout errors in my pocket on top of my win. Lots of things determine if a game is playable. Not all are immediately apparent. Years later that dealer still works there and still can't add. LOL

[counter19]

I just keep the win sessions to under $500 when playing reds and make sure they know when I am losing.

They all know my act as "me" already and it would be weird to change now. It would be like I have a multiple personality or something if I suddenly change! I don't really mind the act anyway.
However, the $500 win thing is likewise the amount that I limit myself to. My circumstances differ somewhat though because I have to drive a long ways to get to the casino whereas it's on the way home for you. I can't imagine driving 80 miles there and 80 miles back just to be there for an hour. Since the amount won is a function of time when card counting, I want to play all I can while there because of the cost of gas. My goal is to move up to a unit of $10 as soon as possible in order for the gas to be a lesser expense percentage wise.
That being said, there IS one other casino that I did not mention. I have played there about 4 times and have ironically lost every time. However, I am almost sure that they know that I am counting. They only have ONE blackjack table. The first time I played there, my spread was too obvious. I ended up losing, but I sensed an awareness of the pit boss of what was going on. The next few times that I played there, it seemed that the pit bosses were watching me closely. The last time that I played there, the pit boss was one I had not seen before and was very forbidding. He would stand over the table watching us play and looking at us like we were about to cheat or something ("we" being me and some ploppies). The pit bosses at the other joints were more pleasant. THEN, a lady came out and watched us play along with him. She was standing over my shoulder watching. During the shuffle, I said something along the lines of "I've not seen you before. Are you a pit boss also?" She replied "I'm pulling rank." I did not know what that meant for sure, but I had a bad feeling. I started to play the next shuffle and I lost several of the first hands. I pretended to be frustrated with the losing and colored up and left. I haven't been back.

All of these casinos are within a maximum of 20 miles from each other. I am concerned that if I lose one, I could lose them all. Haven't been backed off yet though. I am pretty skilled at hiding chips. Do you think I should do a test run at this casino and see if I get tossed? I would use a spread of 1 to 8 units.

[Three]

Why would you go back to the crappy crowded game with high heat that is about to back you off. The art to this is to know when you are about to be backed off and be somewhere else for the next 6 months or so. However long it takes for them to forget. I hope you had enough sense to play like an idiot. They can watch you fine from where you can't see hem so they were giving you the chance to become scarce before they threw you out.

[counter19]

My instinct is to do just that. I had decided that I was not going to go back there for at least a year. For me, this would be late next summer. ZeeBabar has a different opinion so I wanted to see his take on it after he had all the facts of this casino that I didn't previously mention. Any experiences that I have ever read suggest that you should bolt. Currently, my viewpoint is, I'm still not going back there until summer if I go at all. I agree with you on the art form. It's a psychological game no doubt. However, I wasn't there long enough the last time to play like an idiot. It was only one or two shuffles with a full table. They didn't get the chance to see me hit A7 against a 10 or any other smart moves that the ploppies normally don't make.
I can not overstate how small the area is where I live. It ain't Vegas. I have a choice of 5 casinos including this crappy one that I hate. I think I should just stick to the friendly ones, but I want to hear all opinions. If I had to predict what I am going to do, I would probably say that I am not going to go back there for years unless there is no other option. Heat or not heat, it's the casino that I like the least anyway.

[biggg]

My instinct is to do just that. I had decided that I was not going to go back there for at least a year. For me, this would be late next summer. ZeeBabar has a different opinion so I wanted to see his take on it after he had all the facts of this casino that I didn't previously mention. Any experiences that I have ever read suggest that you should bolt. Currently, my viewpoint is, I'm still not going back there until summer if I go at all. I agree with you on the art form. It's a psychological game no doubt. However, I wasn't there long enough the last time to play like an idiot. It was only one or two shuffles with a full table. They didn't get the chance to see me hit A7 against a 10 or any other smart moves that the ploppies normally don't make.
I can not overstate how small the area is where I live. It ain't Vegas. I have a choice of 5 casinos including this crappy one that I hate. I think I should just stick to the friendly ones, but I want to hear all opinions. If I had to predict what I am going to do, I would probably say that I am not going to go back there for years unless there is no other option. Heat or not heat, it's the casino that I like the least anyway.

One of the things I have learned is that some casinos are never going to take your action for any period of time. With that said, that period of time still might be worth playing, but only if there truly are no other opportunities available at that casino. And what you will find is that these joints often have significant opportunities outside of BJ, since focusing on green level BJ counting action these days is completely irrational anyway and heat for red chippers is just unbelievable. For example one of my associates received a backoff at one of these joints playing under his real name which fortunately did not spread to other casinos. I played this joint later and had a couple of large losing shoes and left. In the following weeks I received substantial EV, much more than I would make in any reasonable counting session, of free play offers, room offers, and giveaways for my short session of green chip play. Obviously it was terrible to play rated at this particular casino. But if I decide the store is truly never going to be worth visiting again, the way I treat these places now is to play extremely aggressively for short sessions, only if I am in the area and the game are good, near the end of a trip if it is in a major gambling destination, and always unrated preferably with an appearance at least slightly different than usual. In your case it sounds like you should never visit this casino again for any reason.

[counter19]

When you say "focusing on green level BJ counting action these days is completely irrational anyway," do you mean that there is no point in counting while betting greens because they are never going to let you get away with it? Since I have never been a greed-chipper, I wouldn't know. Also, when you say "heat for red chippers is just unbelievable" are you saying that you even get a lot of heat for counting while red-chipping?
A lot of counters seem to think that if you are red-chipping, they won't even care if you are counting. I certainly have never had a problem and others have said something similar. Nevertheless, I always operate assuming that they do care and therefore rat-hole heavily (since I have to play rated), dress like a partying blue-collar worker, and pretend to believe in superstitions.
You have also just confirmed my feelings on this casino. I will probably not play there unless I have to, as you said.

[JohnnyUtah]

Since I have never been a greed-chipper, I wouldn't know.

I lol'd at the spelling mistake.

And yeah, if you feel like one casino is giving you a lot of heat, don't go back, especially if you have 4-6 other ones to choose from. No point risking in getting made, BO'd from that one and possibly other casinos. Yeah, it would be nice to know if the other casinos network with each other, but not at the cost of getting BO'd at one or more casinos. I'd rather just never get BO'd period.