I have played in many tourneys, counted in all of them and found it extremely usefull, I am confused why anyone in the know would claim otherwise...
I have also applied STing in these tourneys, to very good effect.
Tourneys always got my juice flowing big time, great excitment and thrills, and for an extreme competitor, such as myself, it was also very serious, and I never took a loss easily.
Ouchez
ouchez,Originally Posted by Ouchez
thank you for your posting. I agree that counting is crucial in tourneys. my experience mostly is with live action chips and I was always concerned about ror of my br and ev overall over long term.
I assumed there was a long term component to the analysis although I did not have exact understanding.
I questioned whether I or most others could analyze all of the short term chip and position exploitations in real time under the pressure.
I took the view that over the long term one gets max chips with card counting and that this translates into short term advantage on average.
very few if any agree with this.
I tried to keep things simple and deviate only on last hand of session.
when it was obvious what to do.
so I would not make mistake.
I was successful with this approach.
I would loosen up with funny money but still count carefully and only deviate on last hand.
remember the dealer typically has the edge on the hand.
it is very complex these tourneys, so much can happen.
I felt simple counting would give me the edge and it worked out for me.
do you have any reflections on these ideas.
please advise.
Most tournaments are very few rounds. You may never even get very deep into the shoe depending on how quickly people get knocked out at your table. I assume Ouchez also knows tournament strategy and will not let the count get in the way of making the right bet or play when the crucial time presents itself for you at the table. There are certainly a lot of more important things to focus on than the count. Like my position has always been that you can do complex things while multitasking if you train yourself to do so. The same applies to tournaments. If you can't do it all the counting is the least important thing for determining your outcome on the 14th or 25th round or however many rounds are in the tourney you are playing. Any accomplished counter can do their count in their sleep even if it is the most complex count so the chances the other stuff is too distracting are pretty low. Like Gron said, show me a player that plays tournaments the way he counts in BJ and I will welcome him to my table.
Last edited by Three; 12-24-2013 at 08:10 PM.
If I am still in the tourney at the last hand I will be in the mix and grab a percentage of the possible winning outcomes. If you know anything about counting it has no effect on your results in such a short period of time. After hundreds of thousands or more rounds the difference will start to be able to be seen. A counter may do well against the dealer but that is not the measure of how you finish in a tournament. Your idea that counting will put you ahead of ploppies in a few dozen rounds is silly. Counting doesn't work that way. That small of a sample is simply variance and meaningless. In a tournament if you put a big bet out the players pacing you will also do so and the player in position trying to catch you will bet small. If the count is high which isn't easy for the most of the tourney due to the very shallow penetration the dealer is as likely to get the good cards as you are. You will be playing against high cards more often and hitting your stiffs. You won't win a higher percentage of the hands but will simply push more just like everyone else. You are in the same boat as everyone else.
I like to bet low for a while and get a feel for the table. If a quick out of the gate player starts betting small to protect his chips I know I will probably have to catch him. If not they usually continue to bet big and often bust out. They sure don't start betting low after losing a few rounds. You are playing the other players so reading them and how they will bet and play is one of your best edges just like reads are in poker where you are not playing the house but rather the other players. Making the right bets will allow you to make the right plays to give you the opportunity for the swings you need. That will have nothing to do with the count but everything to do with paying attention to the other players tendencies and using them to engineer opportunities. What difference does the count make. You need a win or push while the other guy loses. You both have stiffs against a dealer stiff so you have to hit if you have a big bet out. Do you want a high count or a negative count? Think about it.
You for sure must multi-task, and you do not just play by the count, it is a complex situation in which your entire SKILLZ SET must be put into play, and it is those varied SKILLZ that can, and very well may, put you at the final table.
I would put it in these terms, you would not go into combat with just a side arm, you would also want an AR, a combat knife, night vision googles, and some grenades, you may not need all, or have the opportunity to use all, but often to the prepared and better armed, (SKILLZ), goes the victory.
Ouchez
I must disagree with some of your statements which are built on assumptions that from my experiences are wrong, as to game conditions, rounds,-pen, at least in the tourneys I have played in, which are many. As to your general statments concerning counting, again, I strongly disagree with, as I hope any tourney newbie reading this will not be mislead into playing what I would call a lazy tourney game.
Best,
Ouchez
in this situation and remember there are other players most likely I would go with the count and stand unless a very low count and then hit.
a lot can happen with the other players. they could force him to hit his stiff for example.
who goes first is another issue.
there are many factors here and it is not clear what the other guy will do.
but if it is just the two of us then on the last hand I would hit my stiff If I had to in order to get ahead of him. the size of bets is another issue. but overall I would like to keep the situation along card counting lines as much as possible.
I may be missing something but I want to keep the scenario along card counting lines as much as possible and keep my play as simsp9le as possible.
I am suggesting that all of these tools you refer to for the tournament can be useful if one can properly analyze the situation exactly and use them at right time. however I claim that there is at least as tendency to overload ourselves with these tactics. keeping it simple is an advantage tool as well while the others are involved in complicated analysis.
when you get down to an example as the previous one you see the confusion that can happen.
There was a time I would have agreed with you, however I have surprisingly found just the opposite. The more I am involved in the game using various real time SKILLZ, my senses, awarness, sharpness, (the ability to pounce), has actually been greatly heightened, as well as the enjoyment, excitment and anticipation of, playing the AP game.
Best,
Ouchez
for what it is worth to tell the truth I also over time started to get more fancy with the tournaments but
my results got worse. I was concerned that I would lose control, so now I go back to more of a card counting
approach.
I see your point with the skilz. you are just better at it than I.
but then again I think if I am there with you at the last hand and I
have about as many chips or more than you from my card counting, then
I am going to be a contender and competition on the last hand
when I will make my simple obvious deviation possibly.
best of luck
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