Had some fun

[muffdiver]

My closest store has such bad BJ games that the only viable attack is full blown wonging with BC from the top. So a few days ago I jumped in after about 1 deck produced a TC of about 3 (6 deck with $5 min and $100 max). Threw 2 benjies on the table and asked the guy playing first base for a little seating room and he said "why don't you wait a few hands to get in"? I said "look at the discard tray and you see that only about a deck has been played. If near the end of a shoe, I would wait, but not now. I start with a quarter bet and lose a few hands but the count keeps rising and I'm losing $75-$80 bets with some regularity. This was quite pleasing to the aforementioned fellow as he watched me buy another $200 and he suggests that a loser like me should try a different table but I don't walk from good plus counts.
My luck does a complete 180 and I suddenly have recouped my $400 invested plus another $600. Colored up and left. I was very tempted to tell the jerk there was no charge for the lesson but I didn't. It was fun just watching his reactions to what happened.

[Al Mucous]

he said "why don't you wait a few hands to get in"?
...
I said "look at the discard tray and you see that only about a deck has been played. If near the end of a shoe, I would wait, but not now.
...
I was very tempted to tell the jerk there was no charge for the lesson...

So he appeals to something that -- rationally or not -- is considered a point of etiquette by many casino gamblers, something you very probably would have appealed to had you been counting off the top and he attemped to wong into your shoe, he makes this appeal not particularly impolitely, you respond to his appeal by lying to him, you happen to catch meaningless variance in your favor and you savor the idea of shoving said meaningless variance in the face of a stranger. And he's the jerk.

Well damnit. Norm's been teaching compassion lately and it's a hard lesson to find in casino circles and one I never learned very well. Casinos, I used to say, turned me into a spiteful brawler. Maybe casinos did turn me into that. But I was always spitefulest when I was least happy. Of all the freaking people in casinos the positive-expectation players you'd think could and should be the happy ones.

Next time simply tell the man that you see the enlightenment within him and you respect him as a source of light, but must nevertheless play. Shuts 'em up every time and it makes you stronger too.

[Jabberwocky]

So he appeals to something that -- rationally or not -- is considered a point of etiquette by many casino gamblers, something you very probably would have appealed to had you been counting off the top and he attemped to wong into your shoe, he makes this appeal not particularly impolitely, you respond to his appeal by lying to him, you happen to catch meaningless variance in your favor and you savor the idea of shoving said meaningless variance in the face of a stranger. And he's the jerk.

Well damnit. Norm's been teaching compassion lately and it's a hard lesson to find in casino circles and one I never learned very well. Casinos, I used to say, turned me into a spiteful brawler. Maybe casinos did turn me into that. But I was always spitefulest when I was least happy. Of all the freaking people in casinos the positive-expectation players you'd think could and should be the happy ones.

Next time simply tell the man that you see the enlightenment within him and you respect him as a source of light, but must nevertheless play. Shuts 'em up every time and it makes you stronger too.

"No one can make you feel inferior unless you allow it." - Eleanor Roosevelt

[biggg]

The opposite happened to me which lead me to quit counting and switch to other advantage plays. As I lose 50 max bets in 3 trips to the same casino in two weeks, doing nothing but playing BCed shoes and entering at +1 I get the pleasure of listening to the idiot plops talk about how I was "sent in by the casino to mess up the cards" or the dealer say that "I should stick to one hand since I always lose when I play two."

[Kat]

The opposite happened to me which lead me to quit counting and switch to other advantage plays. As I lose 50 max bets in 3 trips to the same casino in two weeks, doing nothing but playing BCed shoes and entering at +1 I get the pleasure of listening to the idiot plops talk about how I was "sent in by the casino to mess up the cards" or the dealer say that "I should stick to one hand since I always lose when I play two."

bigg, I know what you're talkin about. It's the same bunch of dudes. I took a photo of em. Here they are...

muppets-arranged10.jpg

[muffdiver]

So he appeals to something that -- rationally or not -- is considered a point of etiquette by many casino gamblers, something you very probably would have appealed to had you been counting off the top and he attemped to wong into your shoe, he makes this appeal not particularly impolitely, you respond to his appeal by lying to him, you happen to catch meaningless variance in your favor and you savor the idea of shoving said meaningless variance in the face of a stranger. And he's the jerk.

Well damnit. Norm's been teaching compassion lately and it's a hard lesson to find in casino circles and one I never learned very well. Casinos, I used to say, turned me into a spiteful brawler. Maybe casinos did turn me into that. But I was always spitefulest when I was least happy. Of all the freaking people in casinos the positive-expectation players you'd think could and should be the happy ones.

Next time simply tell the man that you see the enlightenment within him and you respect him as a source of light, but must nevertheless play. Shuts 'em up every time and it makes you stronger too.

You're wrong on a few points.
1. The guy was more than impolite. He refused to move his seat at all which would have made it more comfortable for all at the table, he clapped his hands in joy when I lost a correctly played insurance bet, kept switching from one hand to two in a ploppy effort to screw up my cards, etc.
2. I didn't lie to him about anything. Had the shoe been even half played, I'd have honored his request. As my OP states, there had only been a few hands played.
3. Same with your role reversal claim. Near the end of shoes, I'll politely ask someone to wait (good count) but not near the beginning as this was.
I'm mostly known as someone that treats people in the same way they treat me.

[redbuck]

Muff, I think you showed enormous restraint - especially after the "clapping" incident. It probably would have been satisfying to verbally "rip him a new one", but then you're calling attention to yourself etc etc etc.......

[moo321]

If someone ever asks you to wait a few hands, the best course of action is to completely ignore it. Throw a bet in the circle. Throw your money on the table if you need chips. Right in the middle of the felt, so the dealer can't deal another hand. That usually stops it without a confrontation. For this reason, I don't look at players when I join a game. Look at the dealer, look away, whatever. It makes it much easier to pretend you didn't hear.

If they persist in asking you to sit out, just say "no". Getting into verbal confrontations like this is major -EV, and it should be avoided if possible. Those ploppies often make a scene, and a few of them can get threatening or violent if they think you're making them lose.

These confrontations are a major part of a back-counting strategy, and it's important to handle them properly, or you'll get noticed.

[muffdiver]

If someone ever asks you to wait a few hands, the best course of action is to completely ignore it. Throw a bet in the circle. Throw your money on the table if you need chips. Right in the middle of the felt, so the dealer can't deal another hand. That usually stops it without a confrontation. For this reason, I don't look at players when I join a game. Look at the dealer, look away, whatever. It makes it much easier to pretend you didn't hear.

If they persist in asking you to sit out, just say "no". Getting into verbal confrontations like this is major -EV, and it should be avoided if possible. Those ploppies often make a scene, and a few of them can get threatening or violent if they think you're making them lose.

These confrontations are a major part of a back-counting strategy, and it's important to handle them properly, or you'll get noticed.

Good points you make, moo. I typically do my best to avoid the confrontations but this time was an exception. To elaborate a little more, the floor people and dealers are all familiar (and friendly) with me at this store because of the frequency of my visits. For this reason it appeared that they were all "on my side" but I agree that this shouldn't happen on a regular basis. It was one of those times that my mood wasn't quite right for tolerating a jerk and I didn't.

[Three]

If they persist in asking you to sit out, just say "no". Getting into verbal confrontations like this is major -EV, and it should be avoided if possible. Those ploppies often make a scene, and a few of them can get threatening or violent if they think you're making them lose.

These confrontations are a major part of a back-counting strategy, and it's important to handle them properly, or you'll get noticed.

I get pissed when people ignore me. I prefer a simple no. It is the players right to join even if he is asked not two. Disrespecting people by ignoring them can have its dangers. I am fine with getting a no. It pisses me off to have to keep asking the question and being ignored. I prefer to be asked rather than to have to ask. Even if you ask and play anyway which does happen. The worst thing is for me to ask several times. I left the table when a guy entered on the last hand after being asked to wait by everyone at the table. Everyone had pressed their bets and would have made a killing but the guy caused everyone to lose. Lots of BJs doubles and split winners gone. I think the rest of the table was getting ready to attack him and give him a beat down so I left the table. I am not sure what happened but it was the second closest I came to being involved in a fight at the table. The closest two old guys at each end of the table sandwhiched me as they went after each other. The one guy was critical of the other guys play and made the comments personal. The other guy would not be disrespected and it quickly went downhill to both lunging at each other with me sandwhiched in between. Security broke it up pretty quick.

[Tbonz]

I get pissed when people ignore me. I prefer a simple no. It is the players right to join even if he is asked not two. Disrespecting people by ignoring them can have its dangers. I am fine with getting a no. It pisses me off to have to keep asking the question and being ignored. I prefer to be asked rather than to have to ask. Even if you ask and play anyway which does happen. The worst thing is for me to ask several times. I left the table when a guy entered on the last hand after being asked to wait by everyone at the table. Everyone had pressed their bets and would have made a killing but the guy caused everyone to lose. Lots of BJs doubles and split winners gone. I think the rest of the table was getting ready to attack him and give him a beat down so I left the table. I am not sure what happened but it was the second closest I came to being involved in a fight at the table. The closest two old guys at each end of the table sandwhiched me as they went after each other. The one guy was critical of the other guys play and made the comments personal. The other guy would not be disrespected and it quickly went downhill to both lunging at each other with me sandwhiched in between. Security broke it up pretty quick.

Why in God's name would you continue to ask someone if you could play? Why would you ask even once for that matter? I have found people get more annoyed if you ask them if you can play and they say no and you totally disrespect their wishes and jump in anyway. I'd rather jump in ignore the flack and play stupid and apologize later for not having proper "etiquette". If they persist, which can happen, I just cup my big cauliflower ear lean over and ask them if they could speak up. They either get the hint or are just plain ignorant, but either way I have fun with it. I don't understand getting pissed with getting ignored, it's kind of the whole point of being an AP.

[Three]

Why in God's name would you continue to ask someone if you could play?

I ask them to wait. My game is strong enough that wonging in is not required. Wonging out can be a useful tool. I was answering a post about replies to request to enter the table with how I feel as the one being asked. And how I feel when people ignorantly disrespect me by cowardly ignoring my request to wait to enter. The poster said to ignore such requests. You are best off looking me in the eye like a man and simply answering me with a no I will not wait. I don't own the table and I will respect you more than the ignorant coward that ignores me and makes me wonder if they simply didn't hear me which forces me to ask again.

[Tbonz]

I ask them to wait. My game is strong enough that wonging in is not required. Wonging out can be a useful tool. I was answering a post about replies to request to enter the table with how I feel as the one being asked. And how I feel when people ignorantly disrespect me by cowardly ignoring my request to wait to enter. The poster said to ignore such requests. You are best off looking me in the eye like a man and simply answering me with a no I will not wait. I don't own the table and I will respect you more than the ignorant coward that ignores me and makes me wonder if they simply didn't hear me which forces me to ask again.

I am neither ignorant nor a coward, and I would very matter of factly ignore you should I choose to play a table you were already sitting at. It would be a grave mistake on your part to assume otherwise simply by that fact. My game is strong enough to ignore those that are of little to no value of me making my living, nor do I find it in me to take affront to anyone's personality trait's I disagree with as I go about my business. Part of self control and discipline is not taking personal that which you can't control. You can ask all you want, but if it's me coming to your table for an advantageous opportunity, your incessant asking will only annoy you, not me. I may ask someone not to jump in as well if I have an advantage that I do not want interrupted, but if they jump in anyway whether they ignore me or just say no, hey that's the breaks. My blood pressure doesn't raise, my heart rate elevate, nor do I ever sweat other players and what they do at the table. The fact that I can do that to them just by jumping in puts me in control and they will either learn to deal with me, or they will leave. Either way I stay in control and with quiet confidence dominate the situation. I do not suffer fools well, so I choose as much as possible not to be one.