Beginner Question - KO vs. HiLo

[Gramazeka]

"As I mentioned in Blackjack Forum #I I have been using the Hi-Opt II count, because I like its power and simplicity for my ability and style of play. [Note from A.S.--Soon after this article was written I switched to the Zen Count for single deck play. When I began shuffle tracking, I switched to the Hi Lo Lite Count !!!."
"Most card counters, including serious professionals, should stick with level one single-parameter!!! card counting systems."

Arnold Snyder

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/hundred.htm

[Bodarc]

Bryce Carlson

"Norm, my peference is for a level-2 system, because the gain from level 1 to level 2 is rather substantial, but the gain from level 2 to 3 or 4 is not. There is nothing wrong with good level-1 systems, such as Hi-Lo and KO, but my philosophy is to squeeze out as much ev as possible without biting off more than I can chew, and a strong level-2 system such as AO2 is just about ideal, IMO."

http://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sho...e-Carlson-Chat

Lots of different opinions

[kripton]

Agree with Seriousplayer

[bjarg]

My eastern european friend: I dont think youll be able to get your point across to this crowd. I wouldnt bother if i were you.

[Gramazeka]

"Some people veer down a*cul-de-sac*of "stronger counts" and even worse - "side counts." I have already written about my feelings for stronger counts here - Advice to new card counters, but going after a side count of 7s or some other side count is nothing more than mental masturbation. There is nothing wrong with mental masturbation; I do the*occasional*Sudoku*or computer solitaire, especially when I'm trying to avoid writing. But don't fool yourself into thinking that this is the road to where the money is hidden. When Atlantic City opened in the late 70s it birthed a new generation of card counters. There was one set that everyone ran into called "the multiparameter jerkoffs." They would stand behind a table looking like they had a serious physical disability. The left foot pointed one direction, the right pointed 210 degrees away, the left hand tapping their stomach as if scratching fleas, while the right hand fidgeted on the back of their neck. They would bend your ear telling you how they were the greatest card counters in the world because they were using the Hi Opt2, counting aces on the left foot, 7s on the right foot,*deuces*on the left hand and 8s on the right. Then when the count was right they would spring onto the table with their max bet... of $50. I did describe Peter Griffin, author of*The Theory of Blackjack, playing in this manner here, but that was 30+ years ago when single decks games were still*readily*available. I do not know any*full-time professional advantage player*that makes his*living*in this manner. None. Zero. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist, it just means I don't know them. (And I believe I know more professional APs than most people writing on the internet.) Remember, masturbation will make you go blind, so stop this once you need glasses."

RWM.

http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2013/...equencing.html

[Gramazeka]

Agree with RWM.

[seriousplayer]

Agree with RWM.

Gramazeka:

One more possible situation that Hi-lo can perform worse. I was game searching one day in Chicago Illnois and came across Harrahs Joliet. They have pretty good rules there for their six deck games: S17, DAS, RSA making the house edge approximately .34% with prefect basic strategy. Then I came to notice that the discard tray and the shoe was hidden. In that situation how will a Hi-lo player that hasn't develop their sense of deck estimation without the discard tray know how many decks are remaining in each round?

I became shocked to find that more and more casinos are hiding their discard trays and shoes to prevent counters from playing. Another casino that I came across that have their discard trays and shoes hidden was in Detroit because I usually search game with rules: 6 deck S17, DAS, RSA. I was in Greektown casino they also covered their discard trays. Then I went to MGM grand because they also have games with 6 deck S17, DAS, RSA. Again they covered their discard trays. It seem like more and more casino is doing this nowadays. In addition, I've found more casinos with those kind of conditions but I will not name them.

Without the deck estimation information Hi-lo players are not able to do accurate true count conversions or determine strategy deviations. Even if one plays Hi-lo using the running count it will not be as powerful compare to Red-seven and KO use with running count. However, it is possible to use the cards dealt per hands method to estimate the decks remaining but it will require the player to keep two counts in their head or use other resources which will give away that their a counter. This could prevent Hi-lo from fully optimizing the system's playing and betting accuracy. For most players I think the unbalanced systems are the best choice because they are able to switch back and forth between using running count and true count for betting and playing without losing too much EV.

[moo321]

That's an interesting point about deck estimation. I suspect it's correct. Personally, I think I was probably making errors of at least 1/2 a deck until I learned tracking several years ago. Now, I doubt I'm making errors of more than a few cards on games where I'm used to the card thickness.

[DBJT]

I became shocked to find that more and more casions are hidding their dsicard trays and shoes to prevent counters from playing. Another casino that I came across that have their discard trays and shoes hidden was in Detroit because I usually search game with rules: 6 deck S17, DAS, RSA. I was in Greektown casino they also covered their discard trays. Then I went to MGM grand because they also have games with 6 deck S17, DAS, RSA. Again they covered their discard trays.

Detroit store's discards are not exactly "hidden"... they're just "shielded" a bit, by this stupid red tinted plastic:

discardracks.jpg

The casinos cannot totally black-out their racks with opaque plastic because the dealers still have to be able to see if they are dropping the cards into the rack correctly.

It's really stupid that they're doing this, doesn't hardly stand in the way of deck estimation at all.

I don't even notice it anymore: after you get used to it, you just see the decks as usual.

-DBJT

[bigplayer]

Last casino that had completely hidden discards was PARX in Philadelphia. Easily beaten by players using unbalanced counts, the clock, counting rounds, or even sidecounting number of cards played while simultaneously preventing the casino from counting anyone down midshoe. Disaster for the casino who subsequently went to normal discard racks and began throwing people out left and right.

With regards to system, you should begin with something simple like high low or KO and focus early on with looking for good games, developing an act, learning casino comportment, and building up the nerve to put the money on the table. After you do all of that you can experiment with systems and may find that you discover you prefer getting the extra benefit of a 2 level count or may find it's not worth the trouble. The bigger your spread and more aggressive your style the less benefit you will get from these higher level systems. If Zen calls for you to be blasting max bets, High-Low will tell you to do the same thing.

[ZenKinG]

DBJT approx 3.4 decks in that picture on the 2nd pic?

[seriousplayer]

Detroit store's discards are not exactly "hidden"... they're just "shielded" a bit, by this stupid red tinted plastic:

discardracks.jpg

The casinos cannot totally black-out their racks with opaque plastic because the dealers still have to be able to see if they are dropping the cards into the rack correctly.

It's really stupid that they're doing this, doesn't hardly stand in the way of deck estimation at all.

I don't even notice it anymore: after you get used to it, you just see the decks as usual.

-DBJT

I should used a better language. Instead of hidden I should use "cover". Sorry for my language.

[seriousplayer]

Last casino that had completely hidden discards was PARX in Philadelphia. Easily beaten by players using unbalanced counts, the clock, counting rounds, or even sidecounting number of cards played while simultaneously preventing the casino from counting anyone down midshoe. Disaster for the casino who subsequently went to normal discard racks and began throwing people out left and right.

Right now, PARX casino has changed their games to 8 deck S17, DAS, LS and 6 deck S17, DAS, LS in high limit. I remember reading from "The Big Book of Blackjack" that you can beat eight deck games with big enough of a bankroll. Since Ken Uston's team has beaten it before but that time Early Surrender was available. The sad part is even with the most complex, advance and very up to date count system the gain in a eight game is small.