i think he was talking about the indexes given on page 237 not the compromise indexes from REKO_F from the back of the book.
No, I think you read that wrong. It says "We use compromise indexes for simplicity. Below are the real KO indexes..." pg 156 Modern Blackjack (Digital)Originally Posted by seriousplayer
The systems detailed use compromise indexes, then he lists the actual indexes for each deck.
Muckz
tawny
My suggestion if you are going to switch to some other system don't switch from TKO in Color of Blackjack to Hi-lo. Since TKO will beat Hi-lo. Think about it KO-P used in the running count mode already perform close to 98-99% of Hi-lo and KO-Full beats Hi-lo slightly. If you want the power of True Count I suggest either three things:
1. Fully True Count KO.
2. Generate more indices in CVDATA that correspond to the TKO True Count. I use True Count indices up to TC= 12 with the running count matching the TC for each deck play. I estimate to the half deck remaining.
3. Switch to a level 2 card counting system.
The Hi-lo count su*ks. Don't downgrade.
Last edited by seriousplayer; 12-07-2013 at 09:53 PM.
Maybe I misunderstood but I will still feel uncomfortable without know the exact TC to deviate from 11 vs A. In Hi-lo it said to double above TC = 1 but it might not be true for KO it might be higher or it might be lower. It is a different story if you follow Modern Blackjack's Real KO indices but I would not deviate from them.
Last edited by seriousplayer; 12-07-2013 at 09:55 PM.
I felt the same way about my hi-lo indices i used for KO wasnt sure if the TKO indices were to much different, but after reading different things and seeing the indices in Modern Blackjack i felt they were atleast an upgrade over the regular ones. And it really doesnt take much more effort at all over the compromise indexes
It's been awhile and I have learned a lot.
First, I cannot seem to get any version of a TKO to beat KO-full in sims. What could be causing this? Also, when simming ko-full enabling depth bets increases SCORE for no surrender games but when adding late surrender and depth bets it performs worse than without depth bets.
I also found out that it is really easy to TC KO for TC's <=4. The RC of each TC has a difference of Decks Remaining. For example,(IRC:2 Pivot:26) I have a 16vT the index play says 0 and there are 3 decks remaining. To find the RC that corresponds with TC=0 I can take my RC of 26 (TC,4) and subtract 3(Decks Remaining) X 4(Difference in TC)= 14 which would be my RC for a TC of 0 with 3 decks remaining. Simplified, (Pivot RC) - (Decks Remaining) * (Difference in TC from Pivot). You can replace Pivot with any other TC you have memorized for the decks, Pivot is easiest to remember since it is always the same. Not sure if this is useful at all but it cuts down a bit on memorizing.
I guess my question here is what do your sims show? Can you beat ko-full? Do I just need to use more than the I18 Indices?
Muckz
First, I cannot seem to get any version of a TKO to beat KO-full in sims. What could be causing this?
What simulation parameters are you using? Are you using the indices for TKO in running count or TC? What indices are you using for your simulations? I don't like the formula that you are using to calculate RC that corresponds with TC because it does not give you what the TC is. From the equation there is no way I can figure out that RC of 14 equals to TC=0. I did a separate calculation myself using a different formula and the RC of 14 using IRC = 2 does come out to TC=0 but what information from the equation (Pivot RC) - (Decks Remaining) * (Difference in TC from Pivot) give me the TC?
Can you beat ko-full?
Yes, you can beat KO-Full but if you just blindly change the indices from any of the systems like TKO in Modern Blackjack and TKO in the Color of Blackjack it will be hard to find a version of TKO that will outperform KO-Full. Have you simulated Daniel Dravot's TKO in the Color of Blackjack and compared it to KO-Full?
Proof RC 14 = TC 0 using (RCirc set to 0 - 4(Decks played))/Decks remaining
with irc 2, 3 decks played/remaining, rc 14
(14-2-4(3))/3
(12-12)/3
0/3 = 0
What i posted was not an equation to get TC but an easy method to determine at what RC is a true count (n) with (x) decks remaining.
I have tried many ways for sims, using preferred/Dravot's index's and more accurate ones from high/low and my own mix's. I do not own cvdata, I cannot make my own unless the index generator is unaffected by non ownership. Dravot does not beat ko-full for me.
Muckz
Last edited by muckz; 12-12-2013 at 11:06 AM.
As I already said I calculated RC 14 = TC 0 using another and yes, I believe you the TC= 0 for RC =14 if you set IRC = 2. As I already stated in my previous post: "I did a separate calculation myself using a different formula and the RC of 14 using IRC = 2 does come out to TC=0".
I have tried many ways for sims, using preferred/Dravot's index's and more accurate ones from high/low and my own mix's.
Who said Hi-lo indices used with TKO is more accurate??? Again you are assuming with no information. See this is the problem using Hi-lo indices for TKO. What game rules did you use to simulated Dravot's. TKO? As a warn you before the mixing and changing of other indices might not be more accurate and better. You must generate other indices using an index generator or hand calculate the indices if you know the algorithm.
What i posted was not an equation to get TC but an easy method to determine at what RC is a true count (n) with (x) decks remaining.
This is assuming that you already know the TC. How will it help when you are going off the RC. For example lets say you start counting and one decks has been played the RC = 12 starting at IRC = 2. What is the True count at that point using your equation? If not than the equation is no use.
I've asked what sim paramaters you are using not how many ways you simulated it.
Last edited by seriousplayer; 12-12-2013 at 12:39 PM.
First, i meant trying more accurate indices that are not just the pivot point and warmline, I don't think the Hi/lo indices would be that accurate as they are different systems. But adding more indices than dravot's did increase SCORE.
This is how I would figure out what TC i am at if rc is 12 1 deck played.
I have memorized my warm line which is tc=2 and the pivot point(26) is always equal to tc,4 no matter how many decks played.
So I know that I want to increase my betting at RC of 16 (tc=2). The RC is at 12 currently as you said.
16tc=2 - 5decks remaining = 11RC of TC=1
The current RC is at 12 so i know that the TC is just a little above 1. More accurately it is 1 1/5 or 1.2
As far as sim parameters or what I think you mean:
1-10 spread
H17 DAS RSA
H17 DAS RSA LS
6 Decks
4 players
2000 rounds
1-10 spread
$5 min bet
No wonging
Ran using default Dravot
Ran using default ko-full 6d
Ran my versions:
Unbalanced TC (Flooring)
No TC (depth bet)
adjusted index's accordingly for each
Muckz
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