Camouflage

**earlthepearlmonroe** · 11-28-2013, 05:11 PM

If you're a counter particularly in Las Vegas you need to do something other than just sit at a table betting small and wait for a high plus count to bet up into especially if you are planning to bet big. That is just way too obvious. There's a guy a few posts down who is looking for a good lawyer. How much money and time is that lawyer going to cost him? He can sue but there's no guarantee he's going to win. Now his name and picture are all over Las Vegas with the caption "Card Counter." If I'm working in a casino and I see you betting big towards the end of the shoe I'm going to rewind the video and count down the shoe to see if you bet big when there were a lot of high cards left. If you do it 2 more times you're out of there. You need to somehow, someway add camouflage to your game.

**seriousplayer** · 11-28-2013, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by earlthepearlmonroe

If you're a counter particularly in Las Vegas you need to do something other than just sit at a table betting small and wait for a high plus count to bet up into especially if you are planning to bet big. That is just way too obvious. There's a guy a few posts down who is looking for a good lawyer. How much money and time is that lawyer going to cost him? He can sue but there's no guarantee he's going to win. Now his name and picture are all over Las Vegas with the caption "Card Counter." If I'm working in a casino and I see you betting big towards the end of the shoe I'm going to rewind the video and count down the shoe to see if you bet big when there were a lot of high cards left. If you do it 2 more times you're out of there. You need to somehow, someway add camouflage to your game.

I think you should stop posting and start reading because it don't seem like you have an idea what you are talking about.

**bigplayer** · 11-28-2013, 05:52 PM

Counters don't need lawyers, counting cards is not against the law. The mechanical process of counting cards is just as simple as you describe, you sit down and bet small until you get a high count and then bet big. Getting thrown out is part of the game. The best camouflage continues to be short sessions coupled with lots of networking that enables you to avoid those casinos without a sense of humor. Smart well run casinos need to see several complete uninterrupted bet cycles to have a statistical certainty that you are indeed using an unapproved strategy. Just seeing you bet big at the end of a shoe may give them a hunch about you, but really tells them nothing. Cover plays are not effective against casinos that throw out customers based on hunches.

That said, there are a few cheap cover plays that are well known that target the exact list of plays that casinos look for when trying to decide if you need further review. (example 16 vs 10). In the end, the amount of cover you use can only delay the inevitable if you play somewhere long enough or often enough.

**Jentho** · 11-28-2013, 06:23 PM

Preserving your face is overrated. Anyone winning any money will be in all the major databases and be backed off/86ed from time to time. A bigger concern is being flyered in an area you are trying to play in

**Nikky_Flash** · 11-28-2013, 06:57 PM

If the OP wants any math-data on camouflage, Norm already has all the data you could ever hope for on camo for bets, if it's not in his FREE e-book, which I think it is... if not, than it is and his other sites...i'm sure i read about cover bets somewhere in Norm's online sites, he has extensive numbers and math on the subject... very interesting and high-quality read

**ACFERRET** · 12-03-2013, 11:44 AM

In a perfect wrld, you would not need a lawyer, however, we are not in a perfect world. I do think that you will not need a lawyer untill you start playing big money as in spreading all black, or higher, and also if you are in anyway playing in CTR teritory

**bigplayer** · 12-03-2013, 01:05 PM

There are several pages of charts in Don's book "Blackjack Attack" with the costs of various cover plays based on whether you do it 1x or all the time based on a per $100 wager basis. The cheapest are those where the correct play is in + counts but the index number is near 0. The most famous example is 16 vs 10. Also, cover pays do not have to be absolutes, they can also be accomplished by changing the index number (for example, changing the index for 16 vs 10 from 0 to -2 would give you cover value but also require you to hit when the count is really bad and weren't able to leave the table prior to the start of the round.

That said, new players on limited bankroll with limited knowledge should not be screwing around with cover. You're betting small already and your fumbling with the chips and occasional slowness with making playing decisions or poor table comportment already work as natural cover in your favor. No need to use real cover if the casino isn't watching you.

**Nikky_Flash** · 12-03-2013, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by bigplayer

There are several pages of charts in Don's book "Blackjack Attack" with the costs of various cover plays based on whether you do it 1x or all the time based on a per $100 wager basis. The cheapest are those where the correct play is in + counts but the index number is near 0. The most famous example is 16 vs 10. Also, cover pays do not have to be absolutes, they can also be accomplished by changing the index number (for example, changing the index for 16 vs 10 from 0 to -2 would give you cover value but also require you to hit when the count is really bad and weren't able to leave the table prior to the start of the round.

That said, new players on limited bankroll with limited knowledge should not be screwing around with cover. You're betting small already and your fumbling with the chips and occasional slowness with making playing decisions or poor table comportment already work as natural cover in your favor. No need to use real cover if the casino isn't watching you.

Well put bigplayer, clicked as "helpful"

**Marlene** · 12-03-2013, 05:51 PM

I have noticed that I get the most heat from taking insurance only on big bets, especially if it is a bad hand like 15 or 16. I hate it when I take insurance on a 15, lose the insurance bet and then lose the hand on top of that (which seems like every time). The dealer will ask me, "Are you sure?" and then look at me funny when I say yes. The floor person looks at me funny, too, but in a different way. That is when the heat usually starts.

**Nikky_Flash** · 12-03-2013, 05:55 PM

How much insurance do you take when the count calls for it? half of max? or just enough for even money? different each time ?

**biggg** · 12-04-2013, 10:14 AM

OP is right which is why I don't think you can straight count for a living. It is too obvious and there are better things to be doing in a lot of stores that generate way less heat. But for the weekend warrior, why back yourself off or play a marginal game?

Even the most obvious ever can get away with it for a few hours at a minimum with the exception of the worst of the worst sweatshops. Regular gamblers chase losses or parlay/ play hunches with big bets all the time, the casino backing you off right away would be terrible for them. Aliases, disguises, hit and runs will take care of the rest.

**muffdiver** · 12-04-2013, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by biggg

OP is right which is why I don't think you can straight count for a living. It is too obvious and there are better things to be doing in a lot of stores that generate way less heat. But for the weekend warrior, why back yourself off or play a marginal game?

Even the most obvious ever can get away with it for a few hours at a minimum with the exception of the worst of the worst sweatshops. Regular gamblers chase losses or parlay/ play hunches with big bets all the time, the casino backing you off right away would be terrible for them. Aliases, disguises, hit and runs will take care of the rest.

Please define "better things". The standards I've set for myself don't allow variations of AP beyond counting and STing. I haven't tried the latter. Even knowing the ruthlessness of casinos, I won't cheat them. Not bragging but it's just the way I was brought up.

**biggg** · 12-04-2013, 12:51 PM

Playing the hole card is probably the best opportunity in gambling relative to the skill and br required to do it. Unfortunately a lot of people have figured this out. But there are still opportunities out there...I am the biggest amateur ever and see a good game for me about one in four times I scout a pit.

Poker, hole card games, promo gaming...counting is probably below all these. The only upside to counting is that you know the game will usually be good if you show up and you can get down big action at the right store. The rest require you to show up when the opportunity is good, not always easy.