Absolute Bare Minimum for "Edge"...

[DBJT]

I was re-reading an old Tommy Hyland interview the other day, and at at the end he mentioned:

>>> Learning to keep track of the cards only takes 15 to 20 hours.
>>> You just get a deck of cards, you flip them and you practice.
>>> Even if you don't learn anything else, that's enough to give you
>>> a slight edge over the house.
>>> If you just keep the running count and play basic strategy you
>>> can get an advantage. It's not a daunting mission to learn it;
>>> it's not that difficult.

...and this got me thinking about what would really be the *absolute* bare-minimum that some totally-novice casino patron could learn to DO, so that they'd actually have a slight long-term EDGE against the house?

Back-counting blackjack and only wong-in on +2 or better, even with simple flat betting but sticking to strict Basic Strategy (maybe incorporate a couple indexes in a "modified BS" chart). Maybe use KO or other unbalanced count so there's no deck estimation or TC conversion (very little math, no division in your head, etc)...?

Or maybe ONLY play coupons, match-plays, etc...?

Maybe just scout games and play ONLY "scavenger blackjack"... taking a part of good double-down-for-less opportunities from some people?

Stuff like that?

What would REALLY be the absolute LEAST that someone could do, to have an advantage (thus, technically, turning them into an actual "advantage player" by definition...?)

-DBJT

[MavSharp]

This is a good question because "advantage player" could be viewed in different degrees depending on the individual. For example, an advantage player could actually be where anyone's play yields a mathematical expectation greater than zero. And maybe from a hobbyist point of view this would be sufficient. However, from an advantage player who plays to cold bloodedly win anything less than 1% is probably not acceptable.
I mean the Ace/Five Count, in which is probably the easiest count to use out of any count, in a 6-Deck game, depending on the rules, deck penetration level and the betting ramp could in fact yield a 0.30% advantage.
So to answer your question of the actual definition of advantage player the Ace/Five Counter would indeed be an advantage player in terms of mathematical expectation. But I certainly hope he wouldn't quit his day job for this scant advantage...

-MavSharp

[Norm]

Personally, I think it's absurd to claim someone can learn to beat a casino, even with a tiny edge, with 15-20 hours of practice.

[biggg]

Here we go. I give friend a BS card for two deck games and he goes and plays aria double deck S17 ds. He bets one unit the first hand. If on the first hand more 2-6s come out than aces plus tens he bets 5 units until shuffle unless he plays a hand where both he and dealer get pat 17-21. I think most people could learn this in 5 hrs and would have a tiny but real edge.

[moo321]

Here we go. I give friend a BS card for two deck games and he goes and plays aria double deck S17 ds. He bets one unit the first hand. If on the first hand more 2-6s come out than aces plus tens he bets 5 units until shuffle unless he plays a hand where both he and dealer get pat 17-21. I think most people could learn this in 5 hrs and would have a tiny but real edge.

Except, the Aria will toss you in 20 minutes for even thinking about counting...

[DBJT]

Personally, I think it's absurd to claim someone can learn to beat a casino, even with a tiny edge, with 15-20 hours of practice.

I agree, Norm... actually even for JUST keeping running count accurate enough I'd hazard a guess it's probably at least double that.

But, then again, the quote's from Hyland and he's undoubtedly trained more team-players than probably anyone else in the world.

So maybe if you pick your candidate well it really IS that low? Who knows...

-DBJT

[TheRedKing]

I went home for the holidays. My 11 year old brother is a little genius (Hole'Em player and Online Chess player, he still beats me in Chess every time). Within a few yours he was counting down a deck in KISS III in just over a minute, no errors. I even taught him IRC, bet ramps, and a few index plays, he knows BS except a few soft doubles and hasn't learned about games with surrender. That night he was in his room with his flashlight on, counting down on his bed and playing a moch game!

I myself learned BS for the 6D and 2D games near by in a late night 2 hour cram session. The next night I spent 6 hours with KISS III and it's index plays on a split screen with the trainer over on BJInfo and had them memorized.

Later down the road I spent 2 weeks on a 4 column multi-parameter count for a carni-game and was casino hopping the following days to double my BR for the first time.

----

The point is that depending on the individual, counting can come almost naturally, or it can take quite some time to master. It depends on the brain, and the enthusiasm of the practitioner.

[Blitzkrieg]

I was re-reading an old Tommy Hyland interview the other day, and at at the end he mentioned:

>>> Learning to keep track of the cards only takes 15 to 20 hours.
>>> You just get a deck of cards, you flip them and you practice.
>>> Even if you don't learn anything else, that's enough to give you
>>> a slight edge over the house.
>>> If you just keep the running count and play basic strategy you
>>> can get an advantage. It's not a daunting mission to learn it;
>>> it's not that difficult.

...and this got me thinking about what would really be the *absolute* bare-minimum that some totally-novice casino patron could learn to DO, so that they'd actually have a slight long-term EDGE against the house?

Back-counting blackjack and only wong-in on +2 or better, even with simple flat betting but sticking to strict Basic Strategy (maybe incorporate a couple indexes in a "modified BS" chart). Maybe use KO or other unbalanced count so there's no deck estimation or TC conversion (very little math, no division in your head, etc)...?

Or maybe ONLY play coupons, match-plays, etc...?

Maybe just scout games and play ONLY "scavenger blackjack"... taking a part of good double-down-for-less opportunities from some people?

Stuff like that?

What would REALLY be the absolute LEAST that someone could do, to have an advantage (thus, technically, turning them into an actual "advantage player" by definition...?)

-DBJT

I read that same interview and I think Hyland is absolutely right! Unless however the individual being trained is an absolute moron, lacks intellect, and more importantly.... does not have the desire to learn and gives up. When I read his interview he stated that he uses the hi/low counting method. Which I found to be very intriguing and interesting at the same time. It's understood that he was inspired from Reveres book, "Playing Blackjack as a Business." I would have assumed that he started out using the Revere Point Count in single deck games early on in his career. The article never stated why he may have changed his counting strategies which I am dying to know why.

To answer your question DBJT I think the least that someone could do to get an advantage is learn to play correct basic strategy first of all. I had to go back over my own game after posting that video, after a few days/weeks of practice I have noticed improvements in my own game.

[Norm]

The casino won't pay you anything to count down a deck or memorize indices. You have to master several skills, performed at the same time, under pressure, in an extremely distracting environment, surrounded by annoying jerks, while checking for dealer errors, watching out for heat, and without looking like you are concentrating.

[TheRedKing]

The casino won't pay you anything to count down a deck or memorize indices. You have to master several skills, performed at the same time, under pressure, in an extremely distracting environment, surrounded by annoying jerks, while checking for dealer errors, watching out for heat, and without looking like you are concentrating.

Indeed, but there are those out there who can learn quite quickly AND handle pressure AND multiple distractions naturally.

Perhaps not the majority, but they're out there.

[Blitzkrieg]

Personally, I think it's absurd to claim someone can learn to beat a casino, even with a tiny edge, with 15-20 hours of practice.

I don't think it's so absurd Norm. People can learn to have an edge in any game if they see an angle. It does depend on a players skill level.

For example, last night I went down to one of the local watering holes in the town I live in. I play BJ recreationally there but on this night the game was no-limit Texas hold'em. The conditions was that I was playing with players I've never met before in my life, 2 full tables with 10 players on each. I cash in for the minimum ($10), she gives me $5000 in playing chips and I end the night splitting the winnings with the chip leader after 3.5 hours of play. Not a bad night for a hustler.

I walked into the bar and pissed the bartender off right off the jump, but the bitc h wouldn't even tell me the rules of the game as I was paying for my buy-in. How rude I thought. After that she gives me her death stare I take my chips and find a seat. Throughout the night I was getting accused by the other players for bullying, splashing the pot as I was calling out what I was betting and it quickly became known that I was the guy to beat. I noticed cheating and a cock sucker spied my cards after I hit a wheel draw and took down the pot, that pissed me off! That's what's wrong when everyone gets to deal and you have to check for honesty.

I realized I had an even greater edge however as I watched everyone dealing. Shuffle tracking, suit tracking, and pair tracking! Bingo! These are BJ skills that I was reading about and applying to poker. And it didn't take long to realize that was my angle to win besides for just playing out right poker and being aggressive. People can have a half ass deal but when you get 6-7 half ass deals in a row and everything starts running together as in suits/pairs the game got so clear and allowed me to easily Dominate the table, actually both tables I was playing on. Even in the "Breaking Vegas" episode which features Tommy Hyland they discuss Ace tracking, it was those same techniques that I was thinking about as I was cracking the code to last nights poker game.

It was the first time I was applying BJ techniques to win in a poker game and it allowed me to win. I had an edge Norm.

[Nyne]

There are positive off the top games out there. Just learning basic strategy is enough for an edge in some places. Or bring a bs card into the casino and using it properly. There are similar, more numerous opportunities to play vp with a strategy card with an edge. Some plays are much simpler and require very little skill beyond recognizing the opportunity. If you want to identify the lowest possible effort for a civilian to gain an edge, it doesn't take much.

[Norm]

There are similar, more numerous opportunities to play vp with a strategy card with an edge.

Yes, but how many people, not skilled in AP, will make money in such a game? VP requires the ability to play vast numbers of hands error-free. 20 years back, there were some VP opportunities that were simpler. 30 years back, even more. Most current strategies are non-trivial at high-speed.

I'm not sure what was meant but Hyland in this particular instance. There is no question that a person can be trained quickly to be useful as a part of a team in some roles.