Question on possibly switching away from Hi-lo

[redthetiger]

Hi all,

I’ve posted sparingly in the past, and have a question I could use help with. I’m a recreational counter so to speak who takes a few trips a year to Reno or Vegas, playing mainly $5 tables. Almost all of my play at the blackjack table has ended up being in pitch games, however, as those have been the ones that have offered me the best playing conditions. The thing is, the count that I know and feel comfortable with is Hi-Lo.

My question is, for someone that does this a handful of times per year currently…do you think it is worth it to switch to a count better suited for pitch games? Or should I spend my time further with Hi-Lo, learning more indices besides I18, and just trying to improve in general with Hi-Lo? I found myself side counting the aces on my last trip and it made me wonder if I should consider something such as HiOpt II, or not. For those that have learned Hi-Lo and switched…did you find it difficult to do so?

While I do consider myself a ‘recreational counter’ so to speak, I do take this seriously and strive to continually get better. I do everything I can to minimize expenses on my trips and only play games that have decent or good playing conditions (which I didn’t used to do, lesson learned). And when I go, I'm focused on trying to get in as many hours as I can at tables with good playing conditions, and not get caught up on the exact amount I'm up or down. Anywho, any advice you all may have for me would be most appreciated. Thanks!

[ZenKinG]

handful of times per year wont see differences in switching from a count. If you're not heavily invested in hi lo which seems you are not since you only know I18, you might as well switch. Just know playing handful of times per year, you wont see any change in your results. That goes for your overall expectation as well, you're still considered to be gambling so to speak because of the little amount of playing time and small edge that you have.

[seriousplayer]

Hi all,

I’ve posted sparingly in the past, and have a question I could use help with. I’m a recreational counter so to speak who takes a few trips a year to Reno or Vegas, playing mainly $5 tables. Almost all of my play at the blackjack table has ended up being in pitch games, however, as those have been the ones that have offered me the best playing conditions. The thing is, the count that I know and feel comfortable with is Hi-Lo.

My question is, for someone that does this a handful of times per year currently…do you think it is worth it to switch to a count better suited for pitch games? Or should I spend my time further with Hi-Lo, learning more indices besides I18, and just trying to improve in general with Hi-Lo? I found myself side counting the aces on my last trip and it made me wonder if I should consider something such as HiOpt II, or not. For those that have learned Hi-Lo and switched…did you find it difficult to do so?

While I do consider myself a ‘recreational counter’ so to speak, I do take this seriously and strive to continually get better. I do everything I can to minimize expenses on my trips and only play games that have decent or good playing conditions (which I didn’t used to do, lesson learned). And when I go, I'm focused on trying to get in as many hours as I can at tables with good playing conditions, and not get caught up on the exact amount I'm up or down. Anywho, any advice you all may have for me would be most appreciated. Thanks!

Stay with Hi-lo for the time being since you are only playing for small stakes.

[Zach Black]

Learn indices from -6 to +10 for DD as you see more extremes and will end up sitting through more negative counts in pitch games. If you start playing more and higher stakes shoe games will likely become a larger fraction of your overall play as pitch games are watched more closely especially in Vegas. The gain for a 2nd level count in shoes when wonging out of negative counts is small.

[Three]

North Nevada SD specialty is a different bird than most here are used to. First you need to understand the mechanics of what makes a game playable. The number of rounds dealt is key as it determines pen. Then the number of players which often determines the latter will determine how many rounds of play you get after the first round. This will vary from casino to casino. The fact that they will not tolerate a lot of bet variation and the nature of the game may not give you a lot of opportunity to vary your bet in a deck PE becomes very important and you will be playing negative counts which is were HILO is really weak.

Imagine the scenario that you can't vary your bet much and your playing decisions will be made at a very different count than your bets were made at a lot of the time. This demands a count strong in PE. Ideally you can keep a couple side counts for a few rounds. If you can a switch to HIOPT I would have little change in indices. Side count A and 7 and if possible more cards. If side counting is tough halves or zen may be your best bet. Halves is harder but an easier transition from HILO. Zen isn't that much harder but would require learning all new indices where the others mentioned have pretty similar induces but much more accurate play.

As for whether it is worth it for you. The question depends on how much you would enjoy learning a new skill set and how much time you have to donate to it. You are leaving a lot of money on the table right now relative to your bets. Your bets are small but you probably won't last long betting big in these conditions. The actual dollar amount difference won't be much (about 10% or so) increase in earnings but the decrease in variance and ROR will be the main value.

[mofungoo]

Since you already use Hilo, are a red chip bettor, and take a few trips a year to play, continue to use it and add more indices. You should be using at least 60 indices for your game. A skill that is essential for single deck play that no one has mentioned is hand estimation. You must be able to "put a player on a hand" by considering the dealer's upcard then temporarily altering the count for playing purposes. After the hand is over go back to the original count for betting. If you don't have it already get a copy of Uston's Million Dollar Blackjack and learn the chapter The Art of Playing Single Deck.

[seriousplayer]

Since you already use Hilo, are a red chip bettor, and take a few trips a year to play, continue to use it and add more indices. You should be using at least 60 indices for your game. A skill that is essential for single deck play that no one has mentioned is hand estimation. You must be able to "put a player on a hand" by considering the dealer's upcard then temporarily altering the count for playing purposes. After the hand is over go back to the original count for betting. If you don't have it already get a copy of Uston's Million Dollar Blackjack and learn the chapter The Art of Playing Single Deck.

I am not a Hi-lo user. The OP mention in his post that almost all his plays ended being in pitch games. You mention that he should use at least 60 indices for those games. Could you give him a run down of the 60 indices that he should being using to attack those games? In the Hi-lo system I am talking about.

[mofungoo]

I am not a Hi-lo user. The OP mention in his post that almost all his plays ended being in pitch games. You mention that he should use at least 60 indices for those games. Could you give him a run down of the 60 indices that he should being using to attack those games? In the Hi-lo system I am talking about.

For north Nevada 1D just about all indices except for soft doubles, any hard doubles 9 or under, and pair splits. This goes for any conventional count, not just Hilo.

[seriousplayer]

For north Nevada 1D just about all indices except for soft doubles, any hard doubles 9 or under, and pair splits. This goes for any conventional count, not just Hilo.

I am looking for specific indices list in the Hi-lo system not the explanation of what indices. If you don't want to list them say so.

[ZenKinG]

Since you already use Hilo, are a red chip bettor, and take a few trips a year to play, continue to use it and add more indices. You should be using at least 60 indices for your game. A skill that is essential for single deck play that no one has mentioned is hand estimation. You must be able to "put a player on a hand" by considering the dealer's upcard then temporarily altering the count for playing purposes. After the hand is over go back to the original count for betting. If you don't have it already get a copy of Uston's Million Dollar Blackjack and learn the chapter The Art of Playing Single Deck.

Great point, I'm not a pitch player so I forgot about that. Great book also

[tawny]

For north Nevada 1D just about all indices except for soft doubles, any hard doubles 9 or under, and pair splits. This goes for any conventional count, not just Hilo.

Did you mean 9 and over? Also why no soft doubles, are they usually not allowed on the most common sd games at all? I have never played sd or been to northern nevada i am hoping to play sd some time soon. I have looked at CBJN to see the most common games for sd. When it says only doubling 9 and above or 10 and above i am presuming this means no soft doubling correct? Can you double soft 19 or maybe even soft 20 if 9 and over?

I miss read you post i see what your saying about 9 and under now. So if it is double only 10 and above(D10), does that mean no basic strategy soft doubles at all, only hard 10 and 11? Also why no pair splits? Are pair splits not worth much without DAS? I know pair splits arent that valuable in any game except 10/10 vs 5 and 6 but are they not worth learning for sd?

And if your remove surrender indices , soft doubles, doubles 9 and below, and pair splits. That only leaves you with a couple hard 10 and 11 indices, and maybe 25 hit/stand indices right?

[tawny]

I have read about inference count somewhere long ago not sure where. Thats the same thing as hand estimation right? Any other good books for pitch games or is Million dollar Blackjack the best one to read?

How much does knowing or "inferring" help you?

[Three]

Did you mean 9 and over? Also why no soft doubles,

They have restricted doubling. No soft doubles and double hard 10 and 11 only. Why learn an index that is not allowed to be used.