I never see other APs

[Three]

I spot them quite regularly but the are not that common. I was playing with one of the best and didn't know it except for his comments (whispered something to me about how effective multi-parameter counts were after some crazy correct plays for the whacked out deck composition.) and a loose correlation to my plays. My BC is untouchable and he regularly raised his bet early and lowered it early as compared to my bets. It turned out he recognized my name when I gave my players card. We had corresponded when I was developing my dual count. I had ever met him before so I didn't know it was him until I got his E-mail. I suspected he was an AP but his act was amazing. He would have been hard to spot by anyone else, especially if they were using a simple count.

[DBJT]

But if you have no security, would there not be more shoplifters running in to your store?

Nobody's saying to have NO security, that would be stupid. It just doesn't make sense to have MORE security (at higher expense) than is justified by the actual threat!

If I would not have met the AP's I know prior to playing with them, I'm sure I would have had a harder time identifying them as such.

My point exactly -- I've played with people in the past and only AFTER we left the table and maybe continued talking at the bar or somewhere OUTSIDE of the casino, realize that we were both counters. Makes for a laugh sometimes when you can chide each other over their "act" or "stupid plays"

Just going by the forums, there are a lot of AP's out there.

That's a good point too, and evidence in favor of my idea that really capable AP's ought to be more or less invisible to other AP's too if they're going to be truly undetectable to casino surveillance.

IF another AP tags you, I'd say you should probably consider that a failure, and you seriously need to revisit your ACT and etc.

Otherwise, casino surveillance is likely to TAG you NEXT!!!

-DBJT

[21forme]

I see other APs I know fairly often. I see an AP previously unknown to me every few months.

[Shark]

Good games attract good players. If you play mediocre games , you wouldn't see many good players.

[ZenKinG]

Good games attract good players. If you play mediocre games , you wouldn't see many good players.

Well said shark

[BJGenius007]

Actually I believe if you're really good enough for the casinos not to catch on to the fact that you're an AP, then other counters could have a tough time being "sure" about you, too.

Just kind of makes sense, right? I mean, think about it...

If a counter can definitely, quickly, certainly I.D. another counter, then that guy's probably not gonna last very long against surveillance, is he?

Short sessions, a couple judicious cover plays, even simple "ploppy-like" banter as friendly chat between players... all that can make another card counter at your table THINK that you're NOT a counter fairly quickly, IMHO.

-DBJT

I used to play at the Counters' Table in WV. I can identify not only AP but what type of system they were using, like balanced or unbalanced, ace reckoned or ace neutral, level 1 or level 2 etc. It is a fun game for me.

[Sharky]

Actually I believe if you're really good enough for the casinos not to catch on to the fact that you're an AP, then other counters could have a tough time being "sure" about you, too.

Just kind of makes sense, right? I mean, think about it...

-DBJT

doesn't make any sense to me...not even a little bit...if you think you are ap and can't identify one at your table, relatively quickly no less, sorry, my friend, i know ap's and you are not one

[21forme]

Good games attract good players. If you play mediocre games , you wouldn't see many good players.

I disagree. You will often see better players at mediocre games because they watched less.
For example, which do you think is watched more closely - the small S17 pit at MGM Grand with its infamous "counter catcher" DD game or the other pits with 6 or 8D H17 games?

[Sharky]

btw, see you are from detroit...spent about 5 mos there this year...played with VERY FEW skilled players, and less than 3 counters total trip...and if you're not playing high limit and your not playing at greektown, you are a complete and total moron...edit: not you personally, bro...just in general...other 3 casinos not even worth playing...unless you get thrown out of gt, of course ;(.....edit 2: gt high limit is low limit $25 min...need to play $50-100 for same rules..nuff said

[ZeeBabar]

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Originally Posted by ZeeBabar
But if you have no security, would there not be more shoplifters running in to your store?



Nobody's saying to have NO security, that would be stupid. It just doesn't make sense to have MORE security (at higher expense) than is justified by the actual threat!

Personally, I think its paranoia. We assume they have tons of people being paid high amounts to do surveillance of BJ tables. Actually, surveillance and security is important for the whole casino but for BJ, they probably have just one or two (if larger casino) who are good. Somebody gets caught and the assumption is that they must have been caught because a whole lot of people and technology is hunting them down, when there could just be one smart guy upstairs.

[DBJT]

you are from detroit... spent about 5 mos there this year... played with VERY FEW skilled players

Well, that may be your impression based on limited sample-size data, but according to this study published in Casino Enterprise Management magazine about "How Poor Are Blackjack Players" the general skill level in Detroit was actually HIGHEST of the groups studied...

How Poor Are Blackjack Players, by Bill Zender

...see 3rd page, 3rd column... data excerpted:

• Average blackjack players in Oregon give back approximately 1.28 percent of every dollar wagered (95 percent variance of +/- 0.29)
• Average blackjack players in downtown Las Vegas give back approximately 0.94 percent of every dollar wagered (95 percent variance of +/- 0.15)
• Average blackjack players on the Las Vegas Strip give back approximately 0.93 percent of every dollar wagered (95 percent variance of +/- 0.15)
• Average blackjack players in Atlantic City give back approximately 0.55 percent of every dollar wagered (95 percent variance of +/- 0.17)
• Average blackjack players in Detroit give back approximately 0.54 percent of every dollar wagered (95 percent variance of +/- 0.12)

...but, whatever dude. I'm not gonna argue about it. Fact is, MOST players don't have the skill to beat the game and we all know that. IF that were NOT true, we wouldn't have a game to play at all, since the casinos would stop offering it.

But, still... data is data. So (ahem) "Nuff Said" to you too, pal and *I* know AP's, and who sez yer one either Charlie, eh? LOL

-DBJT

[metronome]

Sometimes I think it will be like Interview With The Vampire. You think you'll find another counter on the floor and counter finds you first...
Actually, ego aside, no counter, ST'er, hole carder, etc. would want to be detected by choice by another player.

[Ouchez]

I spot them quite regularly but the are not that common. I was playing with one of the best and didn't know it except for his comments (whispered something to me about how effective multi-parameter counts were after some crazy correct plays for the whacked out deck composition.) and a loose correlation to my plays. My BC is untouchable and he regularly raised his bet early and lowered it early as compared to my bets. It turned out he recognized my name when I gave my players card. We had corresponded when I was developing my dual count. I had ever met him before so I didn't know it was him until I got his E-mail. I suspected he was an AP but his act was amazing. He would have been hard to spot by anyone else, especially if they were using a simple count.

I bet I know who you are talking about.........

Ouchez