I never see other APs

[ZeeBabar]

How do they get employment and income status? All I've ever provided is ID.

Sometimes they chat you up and sometimes they assess your appearance and its possible they know what car you drive, etc. Since I am a local, I have made sure they know that I am working full time, that BJ is just a relief to me. One day, I mentioned that since I have been coming to the joint for 10 months, I have lost only about $1800. Another time, when coloring up with a win of about $200, the Pit guy was watching and I said "why is it that when I win, its about $200-$400 and when I lose I do not quit and lose much more?". Another time, after I had been away 3 weeks, I said " If I can get the hang of this game to where I can stay even or lose just a bit, I would come more often, that the reason I had not come around was because I lost my quota for the month in 2 visits last month"

They know I am not a professional and they tolerate me.

[ohbehave]

Cool

[Freightman]

I have a different mindset than most when it comes to spotting counters - there are loads of them - of course, that includes all of the little old ladies and men and everyone who hikes their bet after seeing a lot of small cards come out - of course none of these players are winners.

So then we come to the more serious topic of those who actually count all of the cards. - which of course can be broken down to those that make money and those at don't. Virtually all of these counters can be spotted very quickly. Heck, some of my contacts include shuffle trackers that I've spotted at the table.

However, some counters are tough to spot. I'll list an example each of a top notch player and and a fairly basic player, both of whom were tough to spot.

The top notch guy had to have had best act I've even seen. The first time I noticed him, I simply had a tingle of interest and frankly did not pay a lot of attention. His girlfriend was also playing, virtually sitting on his lap, at lower stakes. The next time I bumped into this fellow, it was a great game in a party pit atmosphere. The booze was flying, the dealers poor - everything was great. I had an opportunity to observe this guy generally spreading 1-4 and 1 - 5 with a 50.00 unit, always sitting out the crap counts starting conversations while his girlfriend continued to play 1-6 (1 in the crap counts) with a $10 unit) I continued to observe, eventually really started to chuckle. I can guarantee that he spotted me a lot quicker than I spotted him. Eventually we both stood up to stretch at the same time and away from the table, I whispered to him - I know your side counting aces, think your side counting 7,s , your shuffle tracking is good, and what's best, is your gf is counting the side bet (which is why she was virtually sitting on his lap, obviously signalling when to ramp up the side bet) He acknowledged my rather astute observations. He had a winning game.

I played with the second, rather basic player, for a fair period of time before I actually pegged him. The reason for that was his spread was very conservative while also heavily betting the side bet. Every so often though, at monster counts, his bets would go through the roof,and it was then I decided to pay a little bit more attention. Anyone simming this game would determine that his approach was not a winner, though through variance and subsequent conversation he had indicated he was up approx 40k for the year - which was not hard to believe considering his betting levels. I finally said to him one day - I know your doing something - he said he was - I said, if I were a betting man, I would say u are using an unbalanced count, something like red 7 - how the hell did u figure that out ...............

There a couple of points to the examples - there's more counters than u think, and both good and bad players can be tough to spot. Last but not least, regardless of how good your act is, past the rat holing an other tricks, the obvious cannot be kept a secret forever. I got backed off from a good game very recently - May have had something to do with the 180 hours this year at 251 an hour. Naturally, I'm allowed to play any game but...........

[Ouchez]

Freight,

The guy with the gal,...........I would have watched and took it in and said nothing,,,I am rather amazed that you actually started a conversation with him about it,,you may want to re-think that activity in the future. But thanks for the story, very interesting.

Ouchez

[Freightman]

Freight,

The guy with the gal,...........I would have watched and took it in and said nothing,,,I am rather amazed that you actually started a conversation with him about it,,you may want to re-think that activity in the future. But thanks for the story, very interesting.

Ouchez

Normally, I would agree - and of course your point is very valid. In this case, it was quite clear to both of us that we each found the other interesting. The noise level and environment at the time made it a pretty safe bet.

[stopgambling]

i love party !!!

[AP2win]

I want to thank most of the active participants of this thread for a very interesting and informative read. I learned a thing or two this morning, including some tips on how I might change my play over time as it becomes necessary.

To briefly answer the OP, my figures are very close to yours. I seem to find about one new proficient AP for every 300-400 players I encounter, although it's hardly scientific or a large enough sample to really mean much. I see quite a few more card counter wannabees along the way as well.

Of course, after reading this thread I realize that I may have played with some who were clearly out of my league. On the other hand, I've also spotted a few players whom I couldn't figure out but who clearly seemed to know what they were doing or who were up to something. One case that comes to mind was a guy who would bet near the table min almost all of the time but suddenly bet very large at seemingly random intervals, and who managed to get winning hands and BJ's on most of his large bets. I am in the longevity camp and currently play with no heat at several casinos so I don't hit and run. I was at that table for about three hours -- and so was he, so it was clearly more than just dumb ploppy luck. My best "guess" was that he was shuffle tracking or ace sequencing. This particular store sees a lot of mid-black play so they didn't sweat the few thousand dollars this guy won. I've seen players cash out low to mid five figures at a quarter table there.

Btw, one initial clue of a club's tolerance (even before playing), IMHO, is the way they stock their trays and use large demon checks. This store routinely stocks their nickel tables with purples and actively uses them, both when coloring up and in paying out the crazy Asian bettors. (lol) By contrast, I've seen quarter tables with no Barneys at all, and it seems that they are the places that sweat any play much over table min. Of course, this is again a totally unscientific observation.